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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#41

Post by itake »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20
itake wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM students are subsidized by liberal arts students Can you provide more context for this? How is the cost of teaching a STEM student higher than the cost of a liberal arts student? The classrooms are roughly the same. STEM student labs might be more expensive to manage, but that equipment is/(can be?) funded by research grants.

STEM professors have to be paid a lot more than liberal arts professors (due to competition for STEM talent). Equipment for teaching isn’t covered under research grants, but might come from overhead on those grants, but more likely from donations (from big corps), grants, or tuition.

The national center for labor statistics says labor costs are about 30% of the spend [0]. STEM programs also include Liberal Arts courses, so only a fraction of the 30% goes to STEM professors pockets. AFAIK, STEM professors justify their value by generating money for the university via patents and grants.

While there are a massive number of private liberal arts schools, there are relatively few private STEM schools. Most STEM degrees come from public university that are significantly cheaper than private universities.

[0] - https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#42

Post by clusterhacks »

option wrote: post #7

As a hiring manager at one of tech firms, I can confirm that I can’t care less where you completed your deep learning courses - at Berkeley or on Coursera. Your GitHub profile matters so much more (especially so if you are fresh out of college).

How about some numbers? Applicants with "traditional" degree (BS/MS/PhD) hired versus applicants with alternative credentials hired?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#44

Post by dorkwood »

unpopularopp wrote: post #8

What's the word when people with trust and experience on one field suddenly trusted when they talk about other topics too? Saw this a lot with COVID but this is a good example too.

Maybe the Halo Effect?

"The halo effect (sometimes called the halo error) is the tendency for positive impressions of a person, company, brand or product in one area to positively influence one's opinion or feelings in other areas."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#45

Post by drewcoo »

gumby wrote: post #30
wpietri wrote: post #6

This is kind of a weird mix of points. Ignoring his political axe-grinding, I think the value of a college degree is increasingly in question for many fields because the price has risen wildly for decades without a corresponding increase in market value. (Except perhaps for elite-institution degrees, which are more about the brand and the network than what people actually learn.) I think we haven't seen at least a pa…

> Except perhaps for elite-institution degrees, which are more about the brand and the network than what people actually learn. Even for a place like MIT/Caltech?

Yes.

Even the way you ask the question shows that you consider them somehow different. Probably better. Which presumably means that "better" people go there or teach there. So that's better networking.

And the fact that you know them by name as better places shows better brand.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#46

Post by ceeplusplus »

lokar wrote: post #3

One thing that would help with the standardized test issue would be to set a threshold (based on what data show is needed to do well in the program) and have a random lottery of everyone who meets that bar.

That's exactly what TJ HS (top 1 HS in the US) tried to do to reduce their Asian representation, because Asians were "overrepresented".

Standardized tests are a better solution than "holistic" admissions, which bias heavily for students who can afford to go to expensive summer camps, competitions, and volunteer in poor countries. At least standardized tests can be studied for even if you're poor.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#47

Post by Jerrrry »

The government should pull out of student grants and loans.

Unfortunately, the "double pell" movement means people paying out of pocket are soon going to have to pay double.

What a coincidence, that the average degree costs the average student loan package.

Stop subsidizing education. Let the market forces actually allow for a fair price discovery, or else that college degree is as valuable in a sense as crypto is...its intrinsic value - use case - job improvement prospects, multiplied by a coefficient of speculation.

I say this as someone who has had a massive impact on the student aid lifecycle, and yet didn't go to college myself, because ironically, wasn't able to fill out the FAFSA form.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#48

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

ab_testing wrote: post #34

I don't like Twitter threads but I agree with Sam Altman in this case. Waiving student loan debt but not resolving the root cause will give a clear signal to colleges - Increase tuition as much as you want because the taxpayers will again pick up the tab in a few years .

Creditors would be on the hook - not colleges - if students default.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#49

Post by jimbob45 »

option wrote: post #7

As a hiring manager at one of tech firms, I can confirm that I can’t care less where you completed your deep learning courses - at Berkeley or on Coursera. Your GitHub profile matters so much more (especially so if you are fresh out of college).

In two years of a job search, I had two firms actually look at my GitHub. It’s not a realistic path to getting hired, as much as hiring managers want you to believe otherwise.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#50

Post by lordnacho »

ulrashida wrote: post #25
spywaregorilla wrote: post #4

Seems like a pretty unremarkable collection of surface level observations if you ask me

Got the same impression. The narrative presented indicates the writer has minimal appreciation for what degrees in fields other than their own actually provide. Good luck being able to practice engineering if you haven't got a degree! The licensing bodies for professions won't care a fig about your life experience.

OTOH, I actually have an engineering degree and I can't build a bridge, a radio, or a robot, despite having looked at all those things during the course.

People who can actually do it have done it for a lab or a business, and then get accredited.

My impression of the engineering degree is that it's basically a certificate in being able to deep dive into... something. Whether that's actual bridges or financial derivatives or trading systems, a degree basically says you haven't given up on some large pile of math-heavy topics, so an employer should bet on you being able to learn their thing. It's also the case that there isn't enough time to learn a whole business, so really it's testing that you stuck with the introductory parts of a wide variety of techie things.

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