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Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#41

Post by JimDabell »

xanaxagoras wrote: post #33
JimDabell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? No. The logic was never “if there’s a match the image is uploaded”. The device never knows if there’s a match. Under the process Apple described, an extra packet of data is attached to every iCloud upload. If there are enough matches, Apple can decode those packets to get a low-res thumbnail, which they then check against a secon…

So in reply to your parent, the answer is yes. It sends a low resolution copy of the image to Apple with extra steps.

No. Look at the context of this discussion. Somebody starts off by asking:

> Does macOS 12.3 and beyond phone home with details of images and documents you open in Preview?

There is no similar context with Apple’s previous CSAM scheme. The device is unable to check for a match and then upload the photo if there’s a match. The scheme only works because it operates on iCloud uploads.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#42

Post by passivate »

omginternets wrote: post #36
amelius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can ask the same question about self-driving cars.

Self-driving cars have the potential to reduce serious harm by a significant margin. Are you saying the same is true with Apple's CSAM-detection measures? If so, how is curbing CSAM consumption going to prevent children from being raped, exactly? And I do mean exactly . The only arguments I have heard thus far appeal to some vague link between producers and consumers, predicated on the idea that CSAM producers are do…

>You may be correct, but it's going to take more than a superficial comparison to convince anyone.

Well you just hand-waved the idea the self-driving cars can reduce harm by a "significant" margin - based on what exactly?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#45

Post by omginternets »

passivate wrote: post #42
omginternets wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-driving cars have the potential to reduce serious harm by a significant margin. Are you saying the same is true with Apple's CSAM-detection measures? If so, how is curbing CSAM consumption going to prevent children from being raped, exactly? And I do mean exactly . The only arguments I have heard thus far appeal to some vague link between producers and consumers, predicated on the idea that CSAM producers are do…

>You may be correct, but it's going to take more than a superficial comparison to convince anyone. Well you just hand-waved the idea the self-driving cars can reduce harm by a "significant" margin - based on what exactly?

If that isn't true, then yes, we should seriously consider abandoning the idea of self-driving cars.

I don't understand, though. Are you saying that this is a reason to accept Apple's CSAM-detection?

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#46

Post by chockchocschoir »

buildbuildbuild wrote: post #21

How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening. (edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)

You don't have to test it against anti-Putin memes to see if it would work for anti-Putin memes. Algoritm would be something like:

1. Have image

2. Get hash of image

3. Get another hash from another similar image

4. Compare hashes

The images themselves can be of whatever to see if it works as expected, they don't have to contain anti-Putin memes.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#47

Post by xanaxagoras »

JimDabell wrote: post #41
xanaxagoras wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in reply to your parent, the answer is yes. It sends a low resolution copy of the image to Apple with extra steps.

No. Look at the context of this discussion. Somebody starts off by asking: > Does macOS 12.3 and beyond phone home with details of images and documents you open in Preview? There is no similar context with Apple’s previous CSAM scheme. The device is unable to check for a match and then upload the photo if there’s a match. The scheme only works because it operates on iCloud uploads.

That's a fair point. In my mind I was immediately transported to the CSAM/NeuralHash debate from last year. I will slow down.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#48

Post by Spooky23 »

agildehaus wrote: post #32
JimDabell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? No. The logic was never “if there’s a match the image is uploaded”. The device never knows if there’s a match. Under the process Apple described, an extra packet of data is attached to every iCloud upload. If there are enough matches, Apple can decode those packets to get a low-res thumbnail, which they then check against a secon…

Why can't they just scan iCloud uploads on-server then? Why does anything need to be done on-device?

They almost certainly do. Every major provider does, and even some enterprises.

The whole point of the CSAM stuff was that it would allow for end to end encryption while not turning Apple’s ecosystem into preferred tool of child pornographers.

Apple poorly communicated the feature, then the EFF put out a deliberately misguided written hitpiece that conflated parental controls with CSAM, and started an online freak out. The “privacy activists” won, and your data is sitting on Apple servers with Apple’s managed encryption keys outside of your control today.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#49

Post by mdoms »

passivate wrote: post #42
omginternets wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-driving cars have the potential to reduce serious harm by a significant margin. Are you saying the same is true with Apple's CSAM-detection measures? If so, how is curbing CSAM consumption going to prevent children from being raped, exactly? And I do mean exactly . The only arguments I have heard thus far appeal to some vague link between producers and consumers, predicated on the idea that CSAM producers are do…

>You may be correct, but it's going to take more than a superficial comparison to convince anyone. Well you just hand-waved the idea the self-driving cars can reduce harm by a "significant" margin - based on what exactly?

1.35 million deaths per year caused by car accidents. That doesn't even account for the people who survive, but are maimed.

Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?

#50

Post by willcipriano »

buildbuildbuild wrote: post #21

How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening. (edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)

Come up with something like:

X51!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-CHILD-ABUSE-CONTENT-TEST-FILE!$H+H*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EICAR_test_file

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