How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening.
(edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)
Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
21–30 of 143 posts
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#22What's the right number of lives to destroy over false positives from an algorithm? Is it some number other than zero? Why or why not?
What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.
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Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#23What's the right number of lives to destroy over false positives from an algorithm? Is it some number other than zero? Why or why not?
What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.
> “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not.
The idea that all of this effort (and all of the direct discomfort inflicted on Apple users) will do anything to stop child abuse is just as hypothetical.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
What’s the right number of lives to destroy from CSAM? There’s a middle ground between doing nothing and totalitarianism. “Destroyed lives” from false positives are at this point hypothetical. Child abuse is not. It’s fair to be concerned about false positives and ensure the system handles such failures appropriately. It’s also fair to directly intervene in the widespread circulation of CSAM.
CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…
I’ve worked jobs in which I was exposed to this content regularly. It’s disturbing, sometimes extremely so. Just because someone does not abuse a child after viewing this content does not mean the content causes no harm to either individuals or our society at large. I don’t want to live in a world where CSAM is tolerated in order to keep pedophiles satiated.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everything is done on device. Which is different than others who choose to do scanning on their servers.
And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? Otherwise there's literally no point.
> And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct?
No. The logic was never “if there’s a match the image is uploaded”. The device never knows if there’s a match. Under the process Apple described, an extra packet of data is attached to every iCloud upload. If there are enough matches, Apple can decode those packets to get a low-res thumbnail, which they then check against a second perceptual hash. The process doesn’t work on arbitrary images on your device, it’s specifically designed for iCloud uploads.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred. Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow…
I’ve worked jobs in which I was exposed to this content regularly. It’s disturbing, sometimes extremely so. Just because someone does not abuse a child after viewing this content does not mean the content causes no harm to either individuals or our society at large. I don’t want to live in a world where CSAM is tolerated in order to keep pedophiles satiated.
[Redacted because avazhi said it better.]
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#27How does someone truly test how this feature is being used without possessing illegal content? This is a nearly-impossible area to research. Frightening. (edit: I'm of course referring to possessing anti-Putin memes) (sarcasm)
By test it, do you mean see if the police show up at your door? If you know how it works, you just need a list of hashes and a way to find a collision which I believe exists.
Otherwise, you're really just highlighting the problem with all closed source software, you don't really have a way to check what it does so you have to trust the vendor.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no really a middle ground; the right number is 0. It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. -- Blackstone's ratio
Or in this situation more like: It is better that ten children get sexually abused than one innocent person comes under suspicion /s
This isn't combatting abuse because producing CSAM != consuming CSAM. It's far better that 10 people beat off to children than have one innocent person come under suspicion.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#29What's the right number of lives to destroy over false positives from an algorithm? Is it some number other than zero? Why or why not?
You can ask the same question about self-driving cars.
This is ignorant. There is lots of information about the safety of human driven cars, it is not a high bar to improve upon, and can be verified. The technology in question is introducing a new form of potentially ruinous statistical surveillance that didn't exist before.
Re: Is macOS Look Up Destined for CSAM?
#30Does macOS 12.3 and beyond phone home with details of images and documents you open in Preview?
No. Why would you think that? It goes against everything they have stated and the designs of the software. They are heavily focused on keeping all of that on device.
I don't think it's far fetched at all, that they'd do that without mentioning it. It certainly phones home when you open Preview [1], what's another little ping when you're looking at CSAM or whatever else they've been instructed to look for? The recent debacle made it clear enough to me that the their privacy reputation is little more than carefully curated marketing, and they're likely under tremendous pressure from lawless alphabet agencies to ramp up surveillance. I wouldn't put anything past a 3 Trillion dollar company, that's quite an empire to protect.
[1] https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-...