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George Hotz against the institutions

return.life

121–130 of 174 posts

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#121
I know that people who do this seriously for a living hate armchair speculations about trolley problems and other dumb and misleading narratives that in effect sabotage valuable research.

However, I'd wonder if progress on the beneficial use case has to come from solving first for malign one, where the only way to get to "kill no humans," is to start with "kill all humans." Sort of like throwing yourself at the ground, but missing.

Even to the point of where cars learn to set traps for humans, where we think it's parked, and then it pounces and runs them down, misdirects them into thinking they're turning one way, and then swerving to take them out. Maybe the infotainment system has access to social media data that implies someone will be in a place at a given time, and like Appointment in Samara, there is no avoiding your fate, determined at birth, of meeting your maker via being run down by an autonomous car. They could even co-ordinate, where one can signal to the other that a cyclist is coming, flash its lights and honk, while the other opens its door into the cyclists path. They could hunt in packs, where data about pedestrians they didn't hit gets passed to oncoming vehicles who might still have the opportunity. The presence of a school in the area would enable cars to reduce human populations by both preventing them reaching maturity, but also imposing catastrophic costs on humans who had already invested in making new ones. They could linger around known bus routes at peak times and co-ordinate to select routes based on their lifecycle whether to sacrifice one of their own against many humans on a bus.

These are obviously horrific, but the counter-cases for them yield features and that pop out of serial 1:1 sensor array development, and into a general strategy for "self driving," that is not a replication of human abilities at all, but an entirely new logic of transportation that optimizes for risk reduction, based on the contra strategies for the hunter/killer use case.

I'd wonder if to make anything remotely human or resembling a living being at all, you need to equip it with the capabilities of a successful predator in its environment, and then have it choose to not exercise them for some higher order incentive.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#122
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a note that this comment, and the thread below it (hopefully excluding the one you're reading), produced zero value to the readers of the thread. Writing these comments must've taken a lot of care and energy for the authors of the comments. But because the whole thread was essentially just a quarrel, and speaking over each other, all that effort was wasted. Restraint: I believe this is the HN way. Hold back your…

Quoted post unavailable.

If you spent half as much time obsessing over the technical details rather than the people you too could be an amazing programmer. What is it that makes you read that and come away thinking "wow, I want to know more about him" and not "wow, I want to be able to do that too"?

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m more excited for self driving cars when I’m not physically in the car. Why park at the train station when I can ge dropped off. Kids on a play date? Sure I can drop off and pick up it’s a couple taps on my phone. Having small kids and a public transit commute is certainly a demographic for this.

The experience you are talking about sounds like Lyft and Uber.

I don’t believe Lyft and Uber would drive a 3 year old to a play date. That and I don’t trust people.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#124

I know that people who do this seriously for a living hate armchair speculations about trolley problems and other dumb and misleading narratives that in effect sabotage valuable research. However, I'd wonder if progress on the beneficial use case has to come from solving first for malign one, where the only way to get to "kill no humans," is to start with "kill all humans." Sort of like throwing yourself at the groun…

That's taking TDD to a new level! But I think the obvious problem is that would produce cars that were very good at not killing people (yay!) but potentially not especially good at driving from point A to point B in an environment full of all kinds of things (not limited to people).

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience you are talking about sounds like Lyft and Uber.

I don’t believe Lyft and Uber would drive a 3 year old to a play date. That and I don’t trust people.

You and I both don't trust people. The second I read your comment I questioned if I would trust my kids alone in a car without me. We know some people are evil. What if you can take over a car and it's destination by hacking the car, something we have seen many times over, and then kidnap a child without going near the house. Or maybe it isn't kids but maybe one day a dictatorship decides all of it's political opposition will be redirected to the detention center. I wonder how long it will be before we see hostile take over of a cars destination and how we can prevent that from happening.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#126
post #114

Has anyone in this thread who is commenting to hate on Hotz/Comma tried the product or even watched a video of it? I have their device in my car, and I love it. Lots of people in here saying this is doomed to fail and that e2e won’t work seem to not realize that Comma has pretty much already succeeded. Their e2e lateral policy is fantastic, and e2e longitudinal is shipping this year probably. They livestream demos on…

I’ve experienced it, although it was a while ago and only briefly in someone else’s car.

It felt simultaneously very impressive for a grassroots effort, but it felt like the underdog status was doing all the heavy lifting in the owner’s perception of how great it was.

When something like Tesla’s autopilot makes a mistake, everyone harshly criticizes them. When Comma makes a mistake, if feels like their fan base is quick to forgive and wants to point out that it’s an impressive effort from a small company.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#127

George Hotz has been on Lex Fridman’s podcast a few times https://lexfridman.com/george-hotz/ Hotz has an interesting take on life and tech. If you have time, listen to one of Lex’s conversations with Hotz while you are getting exercise, gardening, etc. I like Hotz’s idea of generic equipment that works on multiple types of cars. Off topic a little, but the Honda Pilot we bought a year ago has some driver assist tech…

> If you have time, listen to one of Lex’s conversations with Hotz while you are getting exercise, gardening, etc.

That’s a good way to do it. I really wanted to like Lex’s podcast based on the hype and his impressive guest list, but I walk away from every episode feeling like it was full of good vibes but empty calories. It seems his trademark is softball questions delivered in the gentlest possible format, which I suppose is disappointing given his positioning as a hard-hitting intellectual.

The Hotz episode was great for getting a sense of his energy and ambition, which are both impressive and hard to match. However, it’s lacking if you’re expecting more serious discussion, as is typical for Lex’s podcasts. Go in with the right expectations and it’s still enjoyable, though.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but during the coding videos on YouTube he's extremely smart. My favorite saying of him is that they don't have a cone guy because a self driving system shouldn't contain the knowledge of a cone explicitly. Guess what happened in the last Tesla update: the car went into a cone because it wasn't the usual color.

Let's just say I've talked with people who have worked with him on comma.ai and... I heard his cars would be driving into everything if it were just his code running them without all the safety features the folks around him added. geohot isn't dumb, but he's also extremely good at making himself look like a lone genius, all the while he heavily relies on those around him. This has been a pattern his entire career. He…

Kudos for those safety features, smart people don’t hire people dumber than them.

And it’s great that you found out that PS3 uses XKCD’s random generator for nonces (or maybe XKCD stole the random generator function from Sony, Sony should sue them).

Elon likes to take his teams ideas as well and present it as his: the gigacasting was a documented example where the Italian company had the idea years before Elon started talking about it, and they met Tesla at an auto show. Elon presented as he was looking at his Tesla matchbox and thought that it would be the best to scale it up.

Probably this similarity between Elon and George was the reason why they couldn’t work together.

I still love the idea that he (and his team) wants self driving cars to drive as an average human driver as possible, just with non-stop focus, while if you look at Tesla, they care about accident rates. The problem with Tesla’s approach is that on the videos nobody knows if the human driver should take it over or not, and I think that’s what’s really dangerous, and not the optimal way to get to full self driving. At the same time Tesla has orders of magnitudes more money.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#129

Can we please stop lionizing the "maverick genius." It should be clear to everyone at this point that the Nth brilliant asshole with an untamed superiority complex who hates institutions and fixates on sci-fi tail risks is not going to be making the world a better place. We are facing unprecedented global challenges this century that will benefit from humble and cooperative thinking at institutional scales. Not more…

I feel you. The attempt from the article author to frame Hotz' comments as something deeply intellectual made me laugh. I don't dislike Hotz, it's okay to have opinions and to be passionate about what you do. But to put him on such a pedestal as if he was some kind of paradigm-shifting genius is ridiculous.

He's a nerd, he likes engineering, AI and crypto, dislikes universities, sees himself as a genius and thinks the unabomber manifesto is deep philosophy. Wow. How original.

Re: George Hotz against the institutions

#130
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe Lyft and Uber would drive a 3 year old to a play date. That and I don’t trust people.

You and I both don't trust people. The second I read your comment I questioned if I would trust my kids alone in a car without me. We know some people are evil. What if you can take over a car and it's destination by hacking the car, something we have seen many times over, and then kidnap a child without going near the house. Or maybe it isn't kids but maybe one day a dictatorship decides all of it's political opposi…

Tech enabling injustice and authoritarianism is a problem as old as tools themself. Get yourself a bunch of spears and your group can terrorize the neighboring tribe.

With ever increasing globalization, the entire planet might one day become unified under a dictatorship. So with this fear in mind, we could categorically reject any sort of tech and social progress. But will that prevent it from happening? How are isolation and traditionalism going for the uncontacted indigenous peoples of the Amazon?

The way I see it, but please correct me if wrong, we need to have the biggest spear, we need to have all the latest tech including self-driving, while simultaneously making sure we have political checks and balances in place and debate the risks as a society. The people have to be aware of what can happen when they aren't vigilant. Free societies are constantly threatened not just by outsiders but also from within. More often than not from within. Currently I'm rather pessimistic about the state of consciousness in supposed liberal democracies, the populace isn't paying attention and isn't involved enough and that's very dangerous. Don't need autonomous vehicles to establish a fascist rule, it would just be an added bonus.

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