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The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

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Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#51
post #10
post #8

A law that doesn't make predictions isn't a law. A law that is not falsifiable isn't a law. It is an unscientific belief. It's truly incredible to me that people, like the person in this video, can speak with such confidence about how, for example from this video, "if we look at an org chart for an organization, and we look at the structure of the products that it produces, we would expect them to basically just be c…

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

And that's how you know someone got way too drunk on other people's ruminations without first hand experience.

Of course scientists care about their models being close to/matching reality. Have you ever spent any amount of time in an university's lab?

Approximately everyone I've met in my alma mater cared about their models being close to reality (or as truthy as they can be).

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#52
post #20

I’m fairly conflicted by this, because it’s fairly insightful, but it’s also probably overselling itself. They expound quite hard on the idea that abstraction is inherently bad, and I feel this is a poor choice of words, and perhaps a mistake. Abstractions have cost . In many forms, and especially if the abstraction is a poor one. However… they don’t seem to differentiate between good and bad abstractions. They seem…

It is thought provoking at the very least. The perspective I saw his views on abstraction from is the perspective of the product itself. Imagine there is some perfect solution for the ultimate technology. It's a perfect whole, every operation has meaning and purpose, is as optimised as it could possibly be, the hardware and software blend seamlessly with no unnecessary redundancy and so on. Maybe such a thing is so advanced we'd barely recognise it woven into the very fabric of our biology and culture, who knows.

Our human limitations and abstractions limit our ability to approach this goal, so it's not so much that the idea of abstraction is bad because it's useful to actually get stuff done. But it's more that we should always keep in mind that abstraction itself is not the goal, it's just a tool we have to use to get there, because of human limits and I would also say natural limits (like computational efficiency etc).

Obviously such a thing of beauty is a hypothetical extreme. I can see this idea being useful on a smaller scale, like in organising a team, designing a product, or a piece of software, we should pay a lot more attention to where we draw boxes around our design space.

But I am kind of with you when it comes to the broader-sweeping implications. How far does this concept go, and what power do individuals have without some social techno-revolution to make any broader architectural changes to basically anything? I have a mobile phone that communicates via radio with centralised systems. These centralised systems exist to govern access and enforce payment for services, because that's how society itself is structured. Perhaps there's key value stores at various layers of this architecture. There is a store (again because money) where I can choose my own apps (because of human desire for freedom of choice) or view ads (money), all human constructs. (It's all becoming quite philosophical, another human trait.)

But is that the best possible solution for the problem of networked personal computer devices? Is mobile networked computing even an optimal solution for biological lifeforms, is it a technological evolutionary dead end or a precursor to some broader construct we're yet to discover, and if so then what do those superior structures look like from a design and organisational perspective? Perhaps on some alien world they have figured it out, and maybe their solution doesn't include radio communication or key value stores, or maybe it's something we wouldn't even recognise as technology, who knows.

What I take away from it is a call to think about why we're designing things the way that we do. Is there a way we can draw the design space differently and organise teams to consolidate or reimagine the problems they're solving in order to rule out truly unnecessary abstraction and keep only that which is necessary?

I can't imagine how it might look, but I am sure if someone figured out a more optimal way of organising hardware and software that served the infinitely variable needs of humanity securely and efficiently with less abstraction for the same or greater flexibility and that would continue to do so in perpetuity, that person would become rather rich (unless that solution made money obsolete, here we go again).

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#53
post #39
post #8

A law that doesn't make predictions isn't a law. A law that is not falsifiable isn't a law. It is an unscientific belief. It's truly incredible to me that people, like the person in this video, can speak with such confidence about how, for example from this video, "if we look at an org chart for an organization, and we look at the structure of the products that it produces, we would expect them to basically just be c…

The more I think about this comment, the more I feel it is missing the point. They do expound a fair bit on the term “law” but even admit both that the title is a bit flippant (and not the one they originally wanted to go with) and that their formulation of the concept is not yet meeting criteria necessary to consider it a “law,” only that they believe there probably is an underlying law. Like many have said in the p…

I agree with you general about the point of the article and the validity of Conway's Law, but I have a quibble:

> Like many have said in the past, computer science is not really “science” or even engineering.

Computer Science is absolutely science, as much as physics is. Science is the ability to make precise predictive models of the world using math. Computer Science provides plenty of those. For example, by knowing the binary search algorithm we know that the time it takes to do a git-bisect is bounded by the log of the number of commits in a repo. We can also know what kinds of encryption keys could be discovered through brute force guessing given presently available hardware. We can precisely describe the kinds of coordination problems that can afflict concurrent processes (not just in computers) and the kind of mechanisms that can be used to avoid those problems. All of these add knowledge to the world of the same type as the laws of magnetism or gravitation.

Computer Science is the science of process. Software engineering is the application of that science to messy human problems, and is no less an engineering discipline than any other. Like other engineering disciplines there will always be room for heuristics and human judgment. Conway's Law absolutely falls into that.

The precision of any engineering discipline will always be limited by the precision of the softer sciences, as the phenomenon they describe are an ineradicable aspect of the engineering process.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#54
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

And that's how you know someone got way too drunk on other people's ruminations without first hand experience. Of course scientists care about their models being close to/matching reality. Have you ever spent any amount of time in an university's lab? Approximately everyone I've met in my alma mater cared about their models being close to reality (or as truthy as they can be).

And that’s how you know somebody has only second-hand experience of science - having never reflected upon, or examined the (very human) limits of the knowledge they have been given by others.

What scientific procedure would you use to establish whether one working scientific model “matches” reality; while another working model doesn’t? Nobody has direct access to reality outside of their own theoretical paradigm of understanding.

It isn’t just me saying such “crazy” things…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#55
post #27
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I mean precisely what I said. Science does not pursue truth. Philosophy does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

Philosophy divorced from experiment just devolves into navel gazing and batshit insanity.

And empiricism divorced from philosophical reflection fails to understand its own limits/biases.

It is still navel gazing batshit insanity, but if it works well enough nobody questions why it doesn’t work better.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#57
post #31
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Something to that effect. Truth is a philosophical notion. It is not the concern of science. I am aligned with model-dependent realism; or epistemic constructivism or thereabouts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

On a scale of 0 to 100, where 0 is no confidence and 100 is 100% certainty, how confident are you in your belief of this philosophy of Constructivism?

Sorry, I am unable to assign any meaning to your question.

I don’t have confidence IN my beliefs. I have confidence in the usefulness of my mental toolbox.

On a scale of 0 to 100 how confident are you in your belief of this science?

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#58
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more I think about this comment, the more I feel it is missing the point. They do expound a fair bit on the term “law” but even admit both that the title is a bit flippant (and not the one they originally wanted to go with) and that their formulation of the concept is not yet meeting criteria necessary to consider it a “law,” only that they believe there probably is an underlying law. Like many have said in the p…

I agree with you general about the point of the article and the validity of Conway's Law, but I have a quibble: > Like many have said in the past, computer science is not really “science” or even engineering. Computer Science is absolutely science, as much as physics is. Science is the ability to make precise predictive models of the world using math. Computer Science provides plenty of those. For example, by knowing…

Outside of the U.S.A. (notably in the U.K.) the computer science department is known as the informatics department. This makes the larger claim that the field's interest is information theory. Consider the information theoretic guarantees of total order broadcast and it's equivalence to consensus. Consider also the relationships between automata and languages, computational complexity theory, the relational calculus. Many proofs of correctness have been made over many matters in the field and these are expected to remain as true as the laws of physics.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#59
post #16

Having watched Casey's Handmade Hero series since day-1, I've always found him to be highly skilled and insightful. While not a game developer myself, learning from his approach to first-principles software development and code optimization has paid dividends in my day to day work nonetheless.

I've found him passionate and smart. But rarely right. Like him bashing SOLID principles. It read like a man arguing against hammers, and instead suggesting using drills (which is fine if you need to drill a hole but bad advice if you want to hammer a nail). Like yeah, SOLID is over used and over-stated, but they were invented to stop certain set of problems.

> SOLID is over used and over-stated, but they were invented to stop certain set of problems.

The problem is, when was it ever shown they solve any problem? Where are the measurements showing less dev time or less bugs or better performance? Where even is an algorithm to show your software is SOLID? People can't even agree on what those mean.

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