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A 9-line summary of textbook physics

motionmountain.net

161–170 of 179 posts

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#161
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you point to a standard textbook that does this? That does what? Focus on the single-particle case and punt on measurement? My two poster children are the Feynman lectures and Griffiths. > The ones I'm familiar with definitely don't shortchange multi-particle problems. What does your reading list look like? Maybe things have changed since I last looked. > the measurement problem not a mystery? It might be a mys…

A) I don't consider the Feynman lectures a "standard textbook." I don't think there exists any university that uses them as the primary reference in their quantum course. They're fine, as far as they go, but I think modern pedagogy is better. Concerning Griffiths, what do you feel it lacks? You've got the hydrogen atom, fermions, bosons, helium, and probably more stuff that I'm forgetting right now. What else would y…

What Griffiths lacks is an explanation of what a measurement is. He, like many other authors, explicitly avoids this because he says that measurement is an ineffable mystery, but it isn't. A measurement is a macroscopic system of mutually entangled particles. The only real mystery is why the outcomes obey the Born rule.

Decoherence does not solve the whole measurement problem. Like I said, it does not explain the Born rule. But it does solve parts of the measurement problem. Decoherence explains why measurements are not reversible (they are reversible in principle but not in practice because you would have to reverse O(10^23) entanglements). It explains why only one outcome is experienced (because you are part of the mutually entangled system of particles that constitutes the measurement, and all of the particles in the system are in classical correlation with each other). I don't know of any standard text that discusses this at all.

Whether or not Feynman is a "standard text" is quibbling over terminology. A lot of people learn QM from it (or at least try to).

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of comments block me from doing a physics dive; I don’t know where to start/am worried about starting from a bad point. I don’t know whether to follow some of the trails the linked author has laid out if I want to learn more, whether you’re nitpicking, or whether you’re advocating for a much better approach that starts with the details you say this obfuscates. When I was younger and had more time I’d be w…

> I don’t know where to start/am worried about starting from a bad point. Start from the basics. You will get plenty of ability to analyze real-world problems from learning Newton's laws. Lagrangian mechanics rarely even applies in engineering contexts because it can't do friction, air resistance or other dissipative terms.

Lagrangian mechanics can handle dissipative systems. In many cases, friction included, it's as simple as adding a dissipative term to the Euler-Lagrange equations. This seriously complicates the process of deriving them, but physicists were always handwaving their way through it anyway.

Hamiltonian mechanics faces more serious obstacles, though if you really want to you can engineer a noncanonical symplectic structure to capture the dissipation. Wouldn't recommend it though.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#163
post #59
post #41

I've read a few times that you can derive the Maxwell equations from knowing that U(1) exists, as this article implies, that every point in space has (among other things) the symmetry of a circle. But I've never seen this derivation. I assume it's either trivial or too complicated. Anyone has a link or thoughts on this?

There are plenty of so called "derivations of Maxwell equations", however, I would not claim that they were based on U(1) necessarily. IMO ME are just the integrability conditions for any conserved quantity (continuity equation): take a generic three-form in R^4, then dJ=0 => J=dF. F has six components corresponding to two vectofields in R^3 which depend on the fourth coordinate and satisfy the div and curl relations…

U(1) symmetry (R also works in a classical setting: it's the Lie algebra that matters) is exactly how you get a "generic three-form" to drop out of the action.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of comments block me from doing a physics dive; I don’t know where to start/am worried about starting from a bad point. I don’t know whether to follow some of the trails the linked author has laid out if I want to learn more, whether you’re nitpicking, or whether you’re advocating for a much better approach that starts with the details you say this obfuscates. When I was younger and had more time I’d be w…

Physics is most illustrative in experimentation and good enough approximations. None of the above plays a role in undergrad as far as I can tell, unless perhaps if going for ivy league. There is a very good starting point following the historic developments, maybe iron age stuff, a bit of platonic philosophy, including logic, rhethorics and philology on an a-level level. purely theoretical physics is rather math heav…

The linked page is crankery, but most of the physics it's vaguely gesturing at is standard undergrad material. QFT is not, but it's not too far out of reach either.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#165

> Lines 1, 2 and 3, together, uniquely determine special and general relativity, cosmology, the Hilbert Lagrangian and Einstein's field equations, as told here. This is a huge exaggeration. For example 1 says "W=∫L" but L is never defined. The definition of L hides a lot of details, in particular that each point of the universe is equivalent, so there is translation invariance that using the Noether's theorem implies…

These kinds of comments block me from doing a physics dive; I don’t know where to start/am worried about starting from a bad point. I don’t know whether to follow some of the trails the linked author has laid out if I want to learn more, whether you’re nitpicking, or whether you’re advocating for a much better approach that starts with the details you say this obfuscates. When I was younger and had more time I’d be w…

I have a PhD in physics and left academia 25 years ago.

I would divide the learning of physics in four categories:

- the initial discovery part where you read about something for the first time (nutation, baryons, ...). It is best to have a shallow but interesting approach then, with some (or lots of) liberty on the precision.

- the "things are related" part which was extraordinary in my case. It is the part (about 2 or 3 years into the physics curriculum) where you discover that some things are closely related and you can reuse bits and pieces of what you knew from the previous part to see the "big picture". That part is the most fruitful because you can have your own internal discussions about physics and they are not difficult to confirm or not.

- the "let's dive into the details". That one is tough, very tough. You have a lot of details where you can miss what you are actually learning. There is a lot of math involved, up to voodoo math such as renormalisation. This is for the ones who want to make physics the main topic of their life (= academia).

- the "realization" part when you make peace with a lot of things you learned, where you trust math to drive some parts of physics, where you finally understand that there are some things that you will not understand (or that are not understandable with the current knowledge). This is a phase you get to sometimes after not having done physics for some time.

I would warm recommend to spend some time on part one with some "general public" books to get a hint of what is awaiting you. Then to go to step two with a introductory/mid-level book for students of physics, in the "introduction to physics" part. And then look further to selected areas if you want.

Physics is marvelous.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#166

“ bosons, quarks and leptons – with their charges and properties make up everything.” The empty space between the bosons, quarks and leptons is not made up of any of these particles, yet the space ‘exists’ - without it, everything in the universe would just be a big clump.

In general relativity, space is not a thing.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#167
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no Lagrangian in those 9-lines. Nor is there Quantum-Theory, nor the Standard-Model, nor General-Relativity. Nor is science there, really. Which is kinda my point -- those 9-lines aren't all of science.. unless, I guess, if you assume that all of science is a given. But then, why even have 9-lines when 0-lines could do? Then it's hard to avoid critiques because there're obvious flaws. For example, yes, there'…

I can see how this is almost offensive to the whole subject of Experimental Physics since it ignores all of it - and for that matter Solid State Physics as well. But for Theoretical Physics (minus Mathematical Physics) it seemed to me almost like a sport where professors tried to boil the theory down to a minimal set of assumptions while taking symmetry arguments to the extreme. Obviously this doesn't contain any QM…

In physics, experiments are everything. That is why the page says: "No known observation contradicts these nine lines."

Indeed, it is a sport to boil down everything to a smallest set of assumptions. That is how the nine lines arose.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#168

The author is a well-known crank. See post #10 here, for instance: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/strand-model-published... Proceed with caution.

No, I'm not. And reading the cited exchange is indeed useful to see this.

The topic here was that physics can be summed up in 9 lines.

Anonymous ad hominem arguments are worthless in this context - but obviously important to certain people.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#169

> Lines 1, 2 and 3, together, uniquely determine special and general relativity, cosmology, the Hilbert Lagrangian and Einstein's field equations, as told here. This is a huge exaggeration. For example 1 says "W=∫L" but L is never defined. The definition of L hides a lot of details, in particular that each point of the universe is equivalent, so there is translation invariance that using the Noether's theorem implies…

These kinds of comments block me from doing a physics dive; I don’t know where to start/am worried about starting from a bad point. I don’t know whether to follow some of the trails the linked author has laid out if I want to learn more, whether you’re nitpicking, or whether you’re advocating for a much better approach that starts with the details you say this obfuscates. When I was younger and had more time I’d be w…

> how difficult it is to distinguish between a legitimate domain expert jargon meant to condense complexity and unnecessarily obfuscatory jargon

Yep. It's a problem at all levels. Sometimes it's also difficult to distinguish real science from well written crackotery

You can look at the webpages of a few universities. Many of the course have the list of official bibliography visible, and that's a good start. Try to follow the same order of courses, it's impossible to understand quantum mechanics without a good base of classic mechanics.

Sometimes the main book for a physic degree is too technical. You can also try to read the Schaum's Outline book for the topic. They have a lot of examples and exercise, but the theoretical part is shorter. I like them as a side book, but if you don't want to become a super expert, they are fine.

If you want books without math, that's a problem. Some are good, some are bad, and it's difficult to distinguish. There are a lot of fun topics that you can learn without too much math. For example there are a lot of things you can learn about particle physics imagining that quarks are just small balls, but some technical details are too difficult without math (for example why there a 8 gluons instead of 9). There are some good collections of divulgation of science that don't have too much math and are checked by a good editorial team.

> Noether's theorem

The main idea is that if you magically teletransport everything in the universe one mile to the right, then nobody will notice the teletransport. It's important that it's true if you choose any other direction (what does "to the right" mean?) or any other distances (like 1 feet, 1 light year, because "1 mile" is no special).

Obviously nobody has tried this experiment, but we as far as we know the laws of physics are the same everywhere, for example the mass of one proton is like 2000 bigger than the mass of an electron here and the mass of one proton is like 2000 bigger than the mass of an electron in a lab on the other side of the earth and the mass of one proton is like 2000 bigger than the mass of an electron in Andromeda. So this though experiment is just a good guess (if you ignore the curvature of the universe due to General Relativity).

But if this guess is correct, then the Noether's theorem says that momentum is conserved, that is a property that is verified in a lot of experiments. So it initially looks like a abstract magical though experiment, but the consequence is that there is an important number that is a constant in each real experiment.

This constant numbers sometimes simplify some calculations a lot. It's similar to the conservation of energy that in some cases is useful to prove that something is impossible or get the final result without looking at the nasty details of the experiment.

The magical translation of everything in the universe is a symmetry, and the idea is that you can discover other symmetries of the universe. Ignoring some technical details, then you can use the Noether's theorem to discover new numbers that are constant in all experiments.

Sometimes the symmetry is a symmetry of all the universe that is easy to see, sometimes it's a more abstract symmetry, sometimes is just a symmetry of the experiment and you ignore the rest of the universe. There are many applications of the Noether's theorem.

Re: A 9-line summary of textbook physics

#170

The author is a well-known crank. See post #10 here, for instance: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/strand-model-published... Proceed with caution.

I liked the original post at https://www.motionmountain.net/9lines.html , except for a couple of words I point out below.

After reading your comment I looked at the original post with a view to identifying its basic perspective.

https://www.motionmountain.net/9lines.html was clearly not written by a physicist, as it includes the line "The nine lines contain physics, chemistry, material science, biology, medicine, geology, astronomy, engineering and computer science. It appears that the nine lines contain all natural sciences!" which is not a physics type of statement.

Obviously, physics contains everything, just the way "bits contain all software". Observing that doesn't make someone a programmer, in my opinion.

Why stop at physics, chemistry, material science, biology, medicine, geology, astronomy, engineering and computer science (list provided).

A physicist could correctly state:

"Physics contains all aspects of chemistry, Earth science / Geology, Oceanography/ marine science, Meteorology, astronomy, biology, molecular interactions, physiological mechanisms, evolution, botany / plant science(s), Zoology, Ecology, etc."

However, it is kind of like saying text comprises all of the words of Shakespeare. Well, sure, but that doesn't mean that you get Shakespearean criticism from writing a text editor. It's two different fields.

The author has an interesting outsider view shown in https://www.motionmountain.net/9lines.html

However, the lines "Isn't this incredible?" and "Enjoy searching for answers." are sarcastic and disrespectful to the work actual physicists put into their discipline for decades and the author should be ashamed for this tone.

If they want to be a physicist they should observe and learn from physicists at every opportunity. (I'm not one, by the way.)

Ignoring the rude sarcasm, we can correctly summarize the document as "Physics governs everything. Period."

It's not a physics document. It is (or rather ought to be) a tribute to physicists and the unbreakable laws of physics.

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