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I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

paranoidvalueinvestor.substack.com

281–286 of 286 posts

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#281
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social security is the alternative and it's going to be inadequate for most of the people posting here I'm sure.

And how do you think social security works? You either have a prefunded model, which has to still invest in something (ie. stocks), or a pay as you go model, which is essentially taking money from our children to fund our retirement.

Your children will be the ones doing the work. If the problem is a lack of children then capital based retirement won't solve that.

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#282
post #35

There's something really insidious about tying 401ks and other retirement accounts to the stock market. People including myself end up with a large portion of our assets essentially gambled on the future success of US corporations. It gives some false legitimacy to this idea that our media is constantly pushing, that if the stock market is going well then regular Americans are doing well.

If you're an elite you want to tie the fortunes of the wider population to your own. It's a good way to secure your position. The stock market doesnt keep going up because of the economy. It does so because of politics.

What? The US economy is still growing pretty quickly compared to Europe.

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand that feeling but what offers average Americans a better option for growing and securing wealth than investing (most) savings in the stock market?

An actual pension fund! The idea is basically the same as any insurance system: the bigger the pool of people participating, the more "shocks" can be absorbed without affecting the long term viability. If you have a tiny pension fund for just one person (e.g. your typical 401(k)), if it has invested its value in a way that makes it impossible to fund that person's retirement, then that person is totally screwed. On t…

Given the way state pensions and Social Security are run in fact, the idea of an effective centralized pension scheme can’t be taken for granted.

Centralized lets you move money as you said, but it leaves a major risk that the whole system is left in a bad state by the central manager. Particularly when they can gain stature by overpromising and leaving office before it’s time to deliver. Doubly so when they look at the investment opportunities as an opportunity to exert political control over the economy at large, like CALPERS currently strives to do.

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, just buy a TIPS fund like VIPSX from Vanguard.

First, my whole point is to stay out of the markets. Your suggestion to buy VIPSX is the exact opposite. Second, go compare the past year of VIPSX vs inflation you'll see that VIPSX is shit. Inflation has steadily increased by 5%, but VIPSX has been all over the place (it was actually down 2% last month) and is currently only up 1%. This is, again, not what normal people need.

Your points in order were:

1. There's no way to hedge against inflation (you didn't know TIPS existed)

2. Having learned about TIPS you assert they're illiquid and can't be traded easily (you didn't know about TIPS funds)

3. Having learnt about TIPS funds you don't the recent returns of a specific fund (you don't know that TIPS adjustments lag reported inflation numbers)

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#285
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of real retirement plans, higher guaranteed social security. This comes out in practice as PAYGO, or "pay as you go". A lot of countries use this model, and it goes bad quickly when tax receipts aren't enough to cover retirement outlays. With poor demographics in almost all large economies, PAYGO plans are going to cause a lot of pain in the next couple of decades. > They have shifted nearly all the risk to…

>The US has more than 150% of its GDP invested in retirement savings. Some of these savings are invested in equities. It has to go somewhere. But that's all by design, which is my point. Let's say from.. I don't know, 50 years ago. Taxes were increased such that social security is 2-3x what it is now. Some level which basically guarantees you have descent money for retirement. Sure you should still save some more ove…

> Let's say from.. I don't know, 50 years ago. Taxes were increased such that social security is 2-3x what it is now. Some level which basically guarantees you have descent money for retirement. Sure you should still save some more over the years, but you won't be completely fucked.

Social security is, essentially, a de facto PAYGO system*. The issue with PAYGO is that you need a stable ratio of working aged taxpayers to retirees who draw income from the program. This is untenable with current US and OECD demographics, which is why countries that use PAYGO in part or in full are 1. raising retirement ages and 2. transitioning to a mixed model where income replacement comes as much as possible from savings and investments.

> In that situation, there is no way 150% of the GDP would be invested in retirement savings.

Retirement in the US is much more than social security. This figure includes pension plans, 401Ks, and IRAs. It's also a cumulative amount, so the annual input to grow the proverbial pot is significantly less than this.

However, if you were to take the expected outlays from this and, instead, fund them through direct taxes, you're likely looking at an additional 1.2T USD in social security taxes each year, which would more than double the social security tax rate. This looks remarkably similar to how much workers in countries that rely almost entirely on PAYGO programs currently pay. This is also with current demographics - the picture becomes significantly bleaker once you project out several more decades.

> I guess that just makes it a foreign concept- but most people in this country can't throw 10-20k a year into retirement funds. That's a massive part of most peoples income.

Other countries actually do require forced contributions into employer pension or invested retirement accounts. The idea being that, if you start early enough, you only have to contribute an small portion of your salary each year to replace a large percentage of your salary in retirement.

> The social security pot would be massive, instead of inflating the stock market.

Social security funds are actually invested. Government debt is an asset class and, as with everything else, a large amount of demand for an asset class has supply side repercussions. The same applies for private retirement investments. Also keep in mind that only portion of any good retirement plan will be invested in equities, and that pension plans are increasingly turning to alternative investments, such as private equity and real estate.

*The social security "pot" will be insufficient to cover expected outlays in a couple of years, which is why it's better to think of it as a PAYGO program.

Re: I'm Too Risk-Averse for Index Investing

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, my whole point is to stay out of the markets. Your suggestion to buy VIPSX is the exact opposite. Second, go compare the past year of VIPSX vs inflation you'll see that VIPSX is shit. Inflation has steadily increased by 5%, but VIPSX has been all over the place (it was actually down 2% last month) and is currently only up 1%. This is, again, not what normal people need.

Your points in order were: 1. There's no way to hedge against inflation (you didn't know TIPS existed) 2. Having learned about TIPS you assert they're illiquid and can't be traded easily (you didn't know about TIPS funds) 3. Having learnt about TIPS funds you don't the recent returns of a specific fund (you don't know that TIPS adjustments lag reported inflation numbers)

You conveniently ignored this part of my first sentence: "...all financial vehicles for savers have been gutted." The line about hedging inflation was just a supporting detail for my main idea.

And your assertion that TIPS funds lags inflation doesn't hold water. Again, go compare the past year of inflation vs VIPSX. They don't track. By simply being a market traded product, a TIPS fund has speculation built into the price. Which, I'm arguing, is against the best interest of the average person just trying to save for their future.

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