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A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

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Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#41

Post by ModernMech »

brandonmenc wrote: post #33
ModernMech wrote: post #24

Here’s a disturbing trend I’ve seen lately: Putin will say something regarding Ukraine, like for instance there are biolabs there which may be used to create biological WMDs. Then right wing media in America starts making the same claim. Trusted conservative voices like Tucker Carlson will spend a good portion of his show talking about the topic, and then he gets rebroadcast in Russia. Meanwhile, whatever he said sta…

Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russia…

Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using biological/chemical WMDs himself, as Russians used this same kind of tactic in their previous aggressions: claim the other side is doing something, and then do that very same thing yourself.

So what happens after Putin makes these claims? Well then Tucker Carlson helpfully comes in and airs a program where he does not make the same exact claims Putin makes, but he does this schtick where he "just asks questions," where the questions he is asking are quite provocative and tacitly align with the Kremlin position. Then the rest of the right-wing chorus comes along and we're all talking about biolabs at different levels, but the whole conversation is being seeded by Putin. What he does then is loop back this chatter on Russian state media. He uses it to show that actually "a lot of people, even in the West" are talking about Ukrainian biolabs and that the whole thing is a legitimate concern.

Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. I don't pretend to know much about biolabs, although it sure seems there are a lot of experts nowadays. But the point is whatever discussion we are having about biolabs is not organic, and we need to be highly attuned to that fact.

We also have to be attuned to the fact that people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine that they were shocked and flabbergasted when Putin actually crossed the border and began his slaughter. Matt Taibbi had to make a public apology based on how wrong he was. And the reason they were so wrong about this is because they have blinders on regarding Russia that have been erected over years, since at least 2016. These blinders prevented them from seeing the obvious: that Putin was amassing a huge force at Ukraine's borders in preparation for an invasion. Because what were they doing during this period? They were again, carrying Putin's water and parroting Putin's position that he was not going to invade at all. So really, I don't know how they have any credibility whatsoever at this point.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#42

Post by sydd »

qiskit wrote: post #34

I agree with most points in the blog except for the last point which struck me as a bit of misinformation itself. > P.S. Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Instead, the political misinf…

Russian propaganda works in a different way than western one. They know that they cant compete with western news behemots like CNN, BBC,... so they go alternative ways -- trying to get their message viral trough alternative channels like social networks. It's hard to notice by design, mostly because their goals is to conquer the west in a way -- they could not simply just say that "hey please break apart into small nations isolate on your own, then we can conquer you one by one". Because this is the core thing Putin wants to reach, and its hidden in plain sight, just read his main propagada philosopher's book summary: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

And some examples on how they do it:

1. https://euvsdisinfo.eu/viral-manspreading-video-is-staged-kr...

2. https://mobile.twitter.com/redfishstream

They have got multiple modus operandi, the largest one is whataboutism, which is actually an old KGB disinformation tactic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#History . A great example is this tweet which was created on the day Russia attacked Ukraine: https://mobile.twitter.com/redfishstream/status/149689293121... (this went viral, was on the Reddit front page)The other one is to have a barrage of fake news (but it always contains a grain of truth), see how Russian officials reacted to the bombing of the maternity ward in Mariupo: First it was denied. They they said it was empty. Then that it was a base for the Azov batallion. Then that the photos were showing "crisis actors", it was staged. Then that the Azov batallion bombed it. And so on...

You can see the effect on Russian people, they do not trust their state at all. For example no one inside Russia believed in their vaccines causing one of the worst Covid infections.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#43

Post by agumonkey »

Since the war I also noticed a fractal rabbit-hole flavor of the fog of war. You can be argued into oblivion because of past information. While trying to discuss with both camps I see incomplete arguments, referring to previous arguments, that refers to previous arguments. The current conflict being partly due to west/east tensions, birth of nato, cold war.. you can even go back to 1917 according to wikipedia. You can also read articles or books and may never be able to conclude anything [0]. I'm not sure it's coordinated fuzzing at the social level. Just say whatever and point fingers at "facts" so the other camp starts to wonder if there's something, meanwhile you keep doing what you do (invade).

[0] fans of Burn after reading might rejoyce.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#44

Post by ModernMech »

usernomdeguerre wrote: post #40
brandonmenc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russia…

It seems tautological that biological research facilities would have biological agents in them? And not a distant stones throw to assume a portion of those under study should not be let out of their cages? That is a substantively different claim than them having biological weapons or researching/producing such weapons, no? I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?

> I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?

And this is the whole point. This right here. Putin has made a very strong claim based on a kernel of truth. That kernel of truth is seized upon and amplified, which serves to amplify the original very strong yet fallacious claim.

- False Claim: Biolabs are being used by an American-supported Nazi regime to create a dangerous pathogen that will target Russians specifically with their DNA.

- Kernel of truth: Biolabs exist and have dangerous things in them. They are being funded by money that has Western sources.

- Laundered opinion: Biolabs are dangerous, we should do something about the biolabs.

- Amplified feedback: Everyone agrees the Nazi-run biolabs have deadly things in them! Here are western personalities that are also very concerned about the biolabs, so I think we're all in agreement. They are using these deadly things to produce WMDs that are going to kill us! We have to do something drastic to stop them from using these weapons against us!

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#45

Post by quinnjh »

ModernMech wrote: post #24

Here’s a disturbing trend I’ve seen lately: Putin will say something regarding Ukraine, like for instance there are biolabs there which may be used to create biological WMDs. Then right wing media in America starts making the same claim. Trusted conservative voices like Tucker Carlson will spend a good portion of his show talking about the topic, and then he gets rebroadcast in Russia. Meanwhile, whatever he said sta…

Maybe we could innoculate our populace with truth that aligns with facts-on-the-ground? I mean inagine if russia dropped the biolabs propoganda and americans were like "yeah i know, my tax dollars help pay for that to preserve my nations interests abroad"

Its not hard to understand why people are uncomfortable injecting something harmful in small dose- but its how we develop a proper immune response. We need to think big picture biosecurity in information domain.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#46

Post by sydd »

brandonmenc wrote: post #33
ModernMech wrote: post #24

Here’s a disturbing trend I’ve seen lately: Putin will say something regarding Ukraine, like for instance there are biolabs there which may be used to create biological WMDs. Then right wing media in America starts making the same claim. Trusted conservative voices like Tucker Carlson will spend a good portion of his show talking about the topic, and then he gets rebroadcast in Russia. Meanwhile, whatever he said sta…

Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russia…

OK, here is some fact checking about the biolabs, spoiler: its Russian propaganda to justify their war and to shift the conversation.

- The US and Ukraine denies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic...

- There was a collaboration signed between US DoD and Ukraine's ministry of health: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukra... Its goal is to handle the pathogens dating from the Soviet era https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-st...

- Ukraine is not alone with such collaboration with the US, e.g. Kazahstan and Georgia have similar projects too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs

- the labs themselves are not secret, their researchers publish frequently and they are under Ukrainian authority, no US scientist work there https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic...

If you think about it the whole thing is totally illogical, why would the US build top secret labs outside American soil, in a country famous for corruption and whose neighbor is the USA's archenemy? Its like moving the Pentagon to Moscow.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#47

Post by brandonmenc »

ModernMech wrote: post #41
brandonmenc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russia…

Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using b…

I knew I shouldn't have linked to Greenwald.

Just like, address the direct quote from Nuland.

> Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs.

There are concerns about biolabs. Nuland said exactly that. She even used the word "concern".

They are - I'm guessing from the context - unique enough that the Russians don't have labs like this, otherwise who cares if the Russians capture them? Am I just ignorant about non-weapons biolabs here?

> Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine

OK. And? They've acknowledged this. If being wrong about a thing disqualifies all your future reporting, then I shouldn't believe anyone.

And if we're talking about people being wrong about Putin's intentions, go back and watch the media and Democratic politicians mock Romney when he suggested back in the 2012 Presidential Debates that Putin was a threat - but now I have to believe everything those people say but Greenwald and Taibbi are off limits?

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#48

Post by qiskit »

gebruikersnaam wrote: post #39
Zealotux wrote: post #7

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes" – Author unclear Can we talk about the supposedly "cosmonauts arriving in the ISS wearing Ukraine's color" for a moment by the way? I saw that news posted at least 3 times today on HN, and it has been pushed all days on the front page on all media over here, I even got a notification on my phone from news outlets. But looking deeper i…

> it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015 First link i could find, from 2021. Clearly the same suits /s. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-564...

The fourth photo captioned "Russian cosmonaut Oleg Artemyev with toys used as indicator of weightlessness by ISS crews."

https://web.archive.org/web/20141124185343/https://www.rt.co...

Unless the russians hacked the archive or time traveled, it shows that the yellow suit has been used since at least 2014.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#49

Post by ineedasername »

trhway wrote: post #25
Zealotux wrote: post #7

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes" – Author unclear Can we talk about the supposedly "cosmonauts arriving in the ISS wearing Ukraine's color" for a moment by the way? I saw that news posted at least 3 times today on HN, and it has been pushed all days on the front page on all media over here, I even got a notification on my phone from news outlets. But looking deeper i…

>But looking deeper into this: it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015, yet news outlet have _zero_ doubt this is a political message from the cosmonauts. The action here was not by choosing Ukrainian flag suits. Like in USSR back then and today in Russia it works in a quantum mechanics way, ie. the suits were already there and those cosmonauts and others involved around instead of paying poli…

That was pretty much my thought. Their alma mater's colors and the use of this color at some other point in the past decade gave them minimally plausible deniability. I don't completely discount the possibility of coincidental timing, but on balance I think that protesting their government's actions is plausible.

Re: A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

#50

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

quinnjh wrote: post #38
qiskit wrote: post #34

I agree with most points in the blog except for the last point which struck me as a bit of misinformation itself. > P.S. Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Instead, the political misinf…

At this point, true facts are considered russian propoganda when the press secretary has an agenda of full fiction.

Hunter Biden’s lost laptop confirmed real by the New York Times this week. A video that was on it of him sitting nearly naked in a hotel room, smoking crack rocks, and telling a hooker how his last laptop was stolen by Russians and they were trying to blackmail him - completely skipped over.

When asked about the absolutely real laptop, she deflected to say it’s proven that Russians have been spreading misinformation.

The media double standard is infuriating.

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