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The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

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Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#11
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A law that doesn't make predictions isn't a law. A law that is not falsifiable isn't a law. It is an unscientific belief. It's truly incredible to me that people, like the person in this video, can speak with such confidence about how, for example from this video, "if we look at an org chart for an organization, and we look at the structure of the products that it produces, we would expect them to basically just be c…

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

So let me try to understand what you're saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong.

Is this a mischaracterization of a subset of your claim: "Scientists do not care if their models are truthful, but they do care that their models are useful."?

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#12
post #11
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

So let me try to understand what you're saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong. Is this a mischaracterization of a subset of your claim: "Scientists do not care if their models are truthful, but they do care that their models are useful."?

Well, kind of. Models are inherently not absolute truths. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be models.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#13
post #10
post #8

A law that doesn't make predictions isn't a law. A law that is not falsifiable isn't a law. It is an unscientific belief. It's truly incredible to me that people, like the person in this video, can speak with such confidence about how, for example from this video, "if we look at an org chart for an organization, and we look at the structure of the products that it produces, we would expect them to basically just be c…

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

> Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers.

What? Parent is litteraly saying don't trust a model that has no predictive power.

You're saying leave model evaluation to philosophers. Last time we did that we did that we had theory of four elements and phlogiston.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#14
post #11
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

So let me try to understand what you're saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong. Is this a mischaracterization of a subset of your claim: "Scientists do not care if their models are truthful, but they do care that their models are useful."?

Or is there just a correlation between truthfulness and usefulness of a model...

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#15
Nice video. Conway's 1968 paper is a good find.

The conclusion is slightly defeatist, but ultimately correct. At time 49:23, Casey says "But we have to do them right now, because we haven't figured out how to do it better."

[excessive modularity] is the worst form of [software development] – except for all the others that have been tried.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#16

Having watched Casey's Handmade Hero series since day-1, I've always found him to be highly skilled and insightful. While not a game developer myself, learning from his approach to first-principles software development and code optimization has paid dividends in my day to day work nonetheless.

I've found him passionate and smart. But rarely right.

Like him bashing SOLID principles. It read like a man arguing against hammers, and instead suggesting using drills (which is fine if you need to drill a hole but bad advice if you want to hammer a nail). Like yeah, SOLID is over used and over-stated, but they were invented to stop certain set of problems.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#17

Conway's "law" is such a cop-out excuse for shipping shitty software... There's no such law of nature that says you must ship shitty software. Enterprises ship shitty software because the average tenure of their developers is 2 years, and they have no incentive to improve things beyond what's necessary to pay the bills.

I mean at the end of the day it boils to few things.

- Entropy

- Capitalism

- Greed

To not be vague, user greed for features and less for performance cause increase in complexity. A complex system is by definition more chaotic and harder to optimize.

And Capitalism rewards doing just a bit better than competition. I.e. optimize your time on quickest things that gives most users satisfaction.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#18
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

> Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. What? Parent is litteraly saying don't trust a model that has no predictive power. You're saying leave model evaluation to philosophers. Last time we did that we did that we had theory of four elements and phlogiston.

No. I am saying leave truth/truthfulness to philosophers.

Every model has predictive power. Even the God model.

It predicts something existing; rather than nothing. Of course, it is a worthless prediction but it is a prediction.

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#19
post #11
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please spare us from truth-seeking and leave that to the philosophers. In science/engineering we care about instrumentalism, not truth. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

So let me try to understand what you're saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong. Is this a mischaracterization of a subset of your claim: "Scientists do not care if their models are truthful, but they do care that their models are useful."?

Yes. Something to that effect.

Truth is a philosophical notion. It is not the concern of science.

I am aligned with model-dependent realism; or epistemic constructivism or thereabouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

Re: The Only Unbreakable Law [video]

#20
I’m fairly conflicted by this, because it’s fairly insightful, but it’s also probably overselling itself.

They expound quite hard on the idea that abstraction is inherently bad, and I feel this is a poor choice of words, and perhaps a mistake. Abstractions have cost. In many forms, and especially if the abstraction is a poor one.

However… they don’t seem to differentiate between good and bad abstractions. They seem to regard all abstraction as simply unnecessary, only used because our brains cannot deal with the entire problem at once.

I think you could make this argument to some degree but it breaks down when you start to see where abstraction is worth the cost. As an example, let’s say I’m writing a service that needs a key value store. If I make a simple abstraction for it, with well-defined properties for exactly how it should behave, how data consistency should work, etc. then implement multiple backends, this is a good abstraction. The reason for this is because software doesn’t have fixed requirements. Some users may be running a small instance of something on their desktop or a NAS or what have you, whereas others may be running software on gigantic clusters and would benefit from using clustered key value stores that are much more difficult to setup for valid, unchangeable reasons, even if we were to get rid of the abstraction and fully integrate a distributed key-value store right into our program.

Also, requirements change temporally. Clang could’ve implemented everything with no abstractions, but when Clang was created it targeted older and fewer versions of programming languages. The abstractions have cost, particularly when they are bad; but not having abstractions would’ve costed far more, IMO. Extending and reusing software that has little abstraction is very difficult because there’s very few reliable boundaries you can work off of. Adding a new operator in Clang is probably still hard, but I’m sure it would be harder if you carried forward all of the abstraction and folded it down instead. You need some kind of abstraction if you want cheap extensibility.

So my conclusion is basically, abstraction is not bad. Libraries are not bad. Engines are not bad. They simply have costs that are not accounted for properly, and may cost more than the value they provide in many cases. Intuitively, we know this; It’s basically the knee-jerk software engineers get when they get into a build-vs-buy discussion. You feel the jolt. The library has an amazing feature list, but something tells you it won’t be so easy. That’s the hidden cost right there.

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