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Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

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Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#441

Post by JadeNB »

soundnote wrote: post #27
pxeger1 wrote: post #3

Is the current Mozilla CEO a plant by Google with the goal of driving Mozilla into the ground as much as possible? I don't understand how they can keep fucking up their business so badly.

"The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies."

I love this comment. It feels like it gets at the heart of a frustration that is otherwise difficult to articulate. I have passed it around to all those I know (with credit) in the hope that it helps them, too, at least name what they are facing as they struggle through bureaucratic morasses.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#442

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

grey_earthling wrote: post #347
ex_mozilla wrote: post #230

I'm posting anonymously for obvious reasons. I've been working at Mozilla since its inception. And eventually left the company 2 years ago. And I'm so mad. Mozilla is not the Mozilla that was created almost 20 years ago. It's not the same people there. After the Firefox 4 nightmare, they started hiring product managers from big corp. We started seeing some ex-twitter, ex-microsoft, ex-amazon joining the company. Peop…

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

> Making tools and services for public use is always political

Why and how?

If I need a hammer, should I care what opinions the guy making it has, as long as he is making (and striving to) make good hammers?

Trying to politicize every single seems to be part of the problem here. We're almost at the point where you can't buy a hammer. You can either buy a LGBTQ hammer or a anti-LGBTQ hammer, even though all you care about is a piece of metal on a a piece of wood that you can hit nails with.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#443

Post by shultays »

ordu wrote: post #14

They seem to be trying to gather a lot of telemetry to measure how they can boost popularity of Firefox. I wonder did they tried to measure how the measurement itself influences popularity? Social measurements are like quantum ones, they change reality. There was a funny story of a Hawthorn Experiment[1], which tried to find ways to boost productivity but at the end managed to state just that the very attempt to cond…

I have worked with enough "data scientists" and see enough telemetry to believe it is all smoke and mirrors and bullshit.

Managers, product owners enjoy making pretty looking graphs out of them and with enough creative accounting they can make any data to fit their narrative.

If a product is in trouble and they think the telemetry will help, then it is time to looking for a new job

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#444

Post by grey_earthling »

account42 wrote: post #412
grey_earthling wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

> This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. What about people who hold opinions you disagree with? > affirm that Mozilla's position is on the side of diversity and inclusivity The SIDE of INCLUSIVITY? LMFAO

> What about people who hold opinions you disagree with?

I don't understand the question you're asking here. Can you ask it more directly?

> The SIDE of INCLUSIVITY?

Seeking to include as many people as want to be included; as opposed to deliberately excluding people.

> LMFAO

A subtle point, eloquently expressed.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#445

Post by grey_earthling »

danillonunes wrote: post #402
grey_earthling wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

Is there any case of a company that went through those steps and it was well received by the public? Because I'm under the impression the people who were asking for Brendan's head are the ones who believe a CEO's personal political position would always reflect on his company. Mozilla just trying to say it does not wouldn't be enough.

Consider why some people were “asking for Brendan's head”.

Yeah, some of them will have thought “he's one of the bad ones; good riddance and I hope he loses”, and they're not likely to be persuaded.

But some people will have been scared. Civil rights are not a done deal; this was the prospect of someone who's campaigning against civil rights, in a position of authority for a project you care deeply about and believe to be important…

They may have _said_ they wanted rid of Brendan, when what they really wanted was an assurance of safety.

That sort of empathetic approach from Mozilla might have persuaded some of this group, and fostered greater understanding between the people who ended up on opposite sides of the argument. Treading more carefully would have pissed off the “other side” less too; and Mozilla would have benefited from Brendan's technical expertise for longer.

Looking back, I think Mozilla reacted too hurriedly. They could hypothetically have done a better job of defusing the situation more gently.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#446

Post by grey_earthling »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #442
grey_earthling wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

> Making tools and services for public use is always political Why and how? If I need a hammer, should I care what opinions the guy making it has, as long as he is making (and striving to) make good hammers? Trying to politicize every single seems to be part of the problem here. We're almost at the point where you can't buy a hammer. You can either buy a LGBTQ hammer or a anti-LGBTQ hammer, even though all you care a…

Perhaps the word “tool” was misplaced. For something like a hammer that you can buy once and then just use, the manufacturer's corporate personality isn't really relevant, yeah.

But for goods and services where you're (perhaps tacitly) entering an ongoing relationship with the manufacturer — like software, which requires maintenance — the company's reputation is important, and it reflects on the values of the consumer.

In a free market, consumer choice dictates what companies do, so by buying from a company that uses child labour (for example), you're endorsing and literally funding that practice.

I don't think this is a new phenomenon: companies have long been rewarded and condemned for taking positions on the moral questions of the day, at the very least as far back as Luddism.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#447

Post by aasasd »

sciurus wrote: post #396
moonshinefe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally feel like it's not treating user's privacy as "fundamental" to increasingly add telemetry like this. In this case correlating downloads to system installs, and to have that on by default. It's fairly hidden first off (what % of users are going to watch the checksums or read these articles?). You also don't seem to get a chance to opt-out of this until after the installation when you can open settings in…

I believe you can opt out by having your browser send the Do No Track (DNT) header when you download Firefox. This applies to all analytics on Mozilla.org. https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/blob/a8ed6ae9c48c93474fbe...

So non-tracking is optional, while the ‘principle’ says it must not be optional.

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#449

Post by knighthack »

grey_earthling wrote: post #347
ex_mozilla wrote: post #230

I'm posting anonymously for obvious reasons. I've been working at Mozilla since its inception. And eventually left the company 2 years ago. And I'm so mad. Mozilla is not the Mozilla that was created almost 20 years ago. It's not the same people there. After the Firefox 4 nightmare, they started hiring product managers from big corp. We started seeing some ex-twitter, ex-microsoft, ex-amazon joining the company. Peop…

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

So the solution you're describing is: apply public posturing to appease the mob, and highlight the queer/LGBT-positive stance of the company (while disregarding the importance of its engineers, given that Mozilaa is a tech company first, not a social justice company)?

Since when have a "good fraction of their user base", i.e. of Mozilla's, been the queer and LGBT community?

Re: Each Firefox download has a unique identifier

#450

Post by grey_earthling »

knighthack wrote: post #449
grey_earthling wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe he didn't have the same values employees had about LGBT, but fuck this This tactic will only work if Mozilla doesn't want to bring queer people along with them — an open web for _most_ people, but some people aren't welcome to join in. Making tools and services for public use is always political, and by tacitly endorsing discrimination against queer people, Mozilla would have been taking a stance that would h…

So the solution you're describing is: apply public posturing to appease the mob, and highlight the queer/LGBT-positive stance of the company (while disregarding the importance of its engineers, given that Mozilaa is a tech company first, not a social justice company)? Since when have a "good fraction of their user base", i.e. of Mozilla's, been the queer and LGBT community?

> apply public posturing to appease the mob, and highlight the queer/LGBT-positive stance of the company

I'm not suggesting public posturing. I'm suggesting sincerity.

> given that Mozilaa is a tech company first, not a social justice company

I don't accept that premise. ~20 years ago, Mozilla was primarily about empowering all ordinary people to make full use of the web.

They talked about their mission rather than products; they used slogans like “Take back the web” [from big corporations] and “This technology could fall into the right hands”; and they unironically used revolutionary socialist imagery.

If they were just a tech company I wouldn't care about them.

> Since when have a "good fraction of their user base", i.e. of Mozilla's, been the queer and LGBT community?

Always. Depending on where you get your numbers from, around 15% to 25% of people are LGBTQ+. The fraction appears higher among people born since about 1990, for the same reason that the number of left-handed people appeared to increase in the 1950s.

And the proportion of people who believe that LGBTQ+ people are worthy of dignity (which is the group Mozilla would be alienating) is even higher than that.

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