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Crypto is an unproductive bubble

alexkolchinski.com

301–310 of 539 posts

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#301
let's just keep it simple.

crypto is good for the following:

1. when you're living in armageddon and/or under an authoritative regime and/or need an exit from fiat for wte reason. not saying it's easy to exit into it, but it's there

2. to create a recursive never-ending loop of collateralized lending. to trade tokens in order to create tokens that can then be traded for other tokens used to collateralize lending for a different set of tokens

for anything else, there are better and more efficient solutions.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#302
Crypto people love to say “it’s the early days.”

But it’s not. Bitcoin is 13 years old. At that age, Windows was on >90% of the world’s computers. Java at age 13 had taken over enterprise software and was about to conquer mobile via Android. Cryptos are used by maybe 0.1% of computer users (if we’re very generous about what exactly constitutes usage). Considering the amount of investment they are an expensive failure by any normal metrics like monthly active users.

It’s not the early days. Rather these are the last days for VCs to sell you this tired old thing before the novelty wears off, and that’s why they are so frantic about pushing it via Hollywood celebrities and whoever else they can muster with money.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#303

One of the biggest drawbacks for blockchain is that transactions can't be revoked after the fact (with the only exception being costly forks of the entire ledger), and there's no additional human oversight (like I'd get when sending a large amount of money through a bank) to protect me. If someone steals my credit card, I have my credit card company to give me some level of protection. They can block transactions if…

People won't transact on chain. Paypal et. al. will allow people to make bitcoin denominated transactions and will settle with other payment processors on chain. That gives the average consumer access to the kinds of protections they are used to.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how currency works, people have to want your coins for you to spend them. The year is 2011. Visa and Mastercard have denied everyone the ability to donate money to wikileaks, despite the fact that they were not charged with any crimes. And yet, back then, I could still send them bitcoin. So yes, actually, even though only a small subset of people actually used bitcoin (especially back then!), it provided…

People could send Bitcoin to Wikileaks in 2011 because there were mechanisms to turn that Bitcoin back into real money. A point that's been raised multiple times elsewhere on this page is that Bitcoin has no backup strategy for when exchanges start getting targeted. It's not a good anti-authoritarian tool because the ability for it to be converted into a usable form exists at the pleasure of governments, who are incr…

[deleted]

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that this thread jumps around a lot and you might be responding to multiple people, but quick reminder of the specific comment thread I'm responding to: ---- > You just need to control the onramps and offramps. > Bitcoin is of no use if you can't exchange it for anything tangible. ---- > All that's required for people to exchange it for something tangible, is for people to start. ---- The need to move BTC over…

> “ Why wouldn't they just use the stablecoin?” This is a good question and I think there’s a two part answer. Part one is stable coins still have smart contract risk in the arbitrage style version, and fraud/authority risk in the custodial version. Stable coins that peg a government currency are also vulnerable to all the same issues fiat currencies are vulnerable to. Bitcoin is a better store of value than fiat (wh…

> If you can’t (exchanges are locked) you’ll need to find someone willing to transact in BTC despite volatility (or someone willing to trade you fiat in person).

This is the part I have an issue with when talking about Bitcoin as a currency. Forgive my oversimplification, but it really sounds like what you're saying to me is that Bitcoin is not a good currency, it's an investment asset, but for the moment it can be converted into other good currencies. However, it turns out that most of these stablecoins and other currencies have very similar properties to traditional government-issued currencies (risks of fraud, inflation through issuance, etc). These are all the things that Bitcoin is supposedly going to fix, but then it turns out that transacting with Bitcoin is largely reliant on keeping those types of currencies around.

The hope is that Bitcoin will continue to be convertible into good currencies, and to a certain extent that's a valid hope. There are scenarios where a government might censor traditional currencies before they regulate exchanges (see Wikileaks, for example). But that's also exactly what people are calling out here; we're questioning how reliable or censorship-resistant those exchanges actually are in the long run. I'm not sure that's a problem that can be glossed over, it's a big fundamental part of the disagreement.

Additionally, I would ask the question, how much of Bitcoin's current value as an asset store is tied up in the fact that exchanges are operational and relatively easy to use? I strongly suspect that if the US government ruled that exchanges were illegal tomorrow, the value of Bitcoin would plummet. And if that's the case, then we have a currency that not only needs some way of exchange with traditional currency in order to be spent, it's also kind of reliant on those exchanges being easy and operational in at least one or two wealthy countries in order for it to be used as an investment vehicle or store of value at all.

If those exchanges get shut down, and Bitcoin is hard to exchange but still valuable, then that's not the worst thing in the world for Bitcoin. It's pretty bad, but it's still a store of value in that scenario. However, if those exchanges get shut down and Bitcoin is both hard to exchange and the value is plummeting because ordinary/rich people aren't using it as an easy investment vehicle anymore, then that's an extremely bad outcome for Bitcoin.

> Wealth locked up in banks controlled by authoritarian governments give you fewer options.

Really, really important to clarify that we're mostly talking about theory here. In practice, wealth locked up in banks controlled even by authoritarian governments like China currently still give me exponentially more options than Bitcoin does for most purchases, with only a few minor exceptions. Could that change? Sure, absolutely. But it's not the current situation.

Even looking at something like Russia; I think depending on how this war continues, it's going to be interesting to see if Bitcoin actually ends up being useful for ordinary people there in the long run. I am fairly skeptical; multiple countries have tried to use Bitcoin in the past during currency disasters and I have not been super-impressed with the average result. And none of those countries were being as aggressively sanctioned as Russia currently is.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#306

One of the biggest drawbacks for blockchain is that transactions can't be revoked after the fact (with the only exception being costly forks of the entire ledger), and there's no additional human oversight (like I'd get when sending a large amount of money through a bank) to protect me. If someone steals my credit card, I have my credit card company to give me some level of protection. They can block transactions if…

People won't transact on chain. Paypal et. al. will allow people to make bitcoin denominated transactions and will settle with other payment processors on chain. That gives the average consumer access to the kinds of protections they are used to.

So the average consumer is back to trusting a central authority (PayPal)? Then what’s the point, for the end user, of the blockchain in the first place?

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#307

One of the biggest drawbacks for blockchain is that transactions can't be revoked after the fact (with the only exception being costly forks of the entire ledger), and there's no additional human oversight (like I'd get when sending a large amount of money through a bank) to protect me. If someone steals my credit card, I have my credit card company to give me some level of protection. They can block transactions if…

> If someone steals my credit card, I have my credit card company to give me some level of protection. They can block transactions if they think it's stolen, and if I report it as stolen I can claw back money from fraudulent purchases. Can we, just for a moment, think critically about whether or not this is a good* thing? As a consumer / client of the credit card company it seems great at first glance. I get scammed?…

Yes, it categorically is a good thing.

People make mistakes. Our society should not be an unforgiving one that heavily punishes mistakes or can’t handle basic situations like fraudulent transactions. Prevention of fraud is a cat and mouse game.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#308
post #302

Crypto people love to say “it’s the early days.” But it’s not. Bitcoin is 13 years old. At that age, Windows was on >90% of the world’s computers. Java at age 13 had taken over enterprise software and was about to conquer mobile via Android. Cryptos are used by maybe 0.1% of computer users (if we’re very generous about what exactly constitutes usage). Considering the amount of investment they are an expensive failure…

This is a major problem. Without redesign, this falls on "q-day".

https://csrc.nist.gov/Projects/post-quantum-cryptography/rou...

"Formal complaint regarding 8 June 2021 incident - 2021.06.15, Daniel J. Bernstein

"Executive summary. A week ago Dr. Daniel Apon from NIST publicly accused me of professional misconduct. Specifically, he accused me of initiating private contact with NIST so as to provide false information to NIST regarding the timing of an upcoming announcement relevant to NIST’s ongoing decisions..."

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#309
post #302

Crypto people love to say “it’s the early days.” But it’s not. Bitcoin is 13 years old. At that age, Windows was on >90% of the world’s computers. Java at age 13 had taken over enterprise software and was about to conquer mobile via Android. Cryptos are used by maybe 0.1% of computer users (if we’re very generous about what exactly constitutes usage). Considering the amount of investment they are an expensive failure…

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Decentralized systems by nature suffer for slow adoption (just look at decentralized networks like Mastodon which are objectively better than alternatives yet lag behind in adoption). Finally, bitcoin is a financial product, I really don't know any other financial systems that we're adopted quickly other than maybe payment processors. We still struggle to adopt centralized systems that come pre-enabled on our phones!

Crypto is just too big to be adopted quickly and one might argue that's actually a good thing.

Re: Crypto is an unproductive bubble

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i suspect that proof of stake cryptotokens at scale will consume less energy than video games and machine learning.

Ethereum has been ‘close’ to going PoS for years now, but I will certainly celebrate the day it happens. Bitcoin… do they even have any plans to move to PoS? In short, I’ll believe it when I see it. I certainly hope you’re right, though.

bitcoin is not going to pos. it'll either become too big to fail via lobbying or it will run into significant headwinds.

maybe it will require pow regulation to change the risk-reward calculation for eth to finalize its transition to pos.

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