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An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

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Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#131

Post by tgvaughan »

mormegil wrote: post #110
jonnycomputer wrote: post #81

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

That reminds me of keyboard heat maps for programming languages: https://g-liu.com/blog/2013/09/reblog-programming-languages-... (the winner being, obviously, LISP :-))

Really cool, but these heatmaps seem to be compiled from source code. I wonder how much the _actual_ distribution of keys pressed would differ. (I use paredit to write scheme code, and I'm assuming IDEs would skew the distribution in other languages.)

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#132

Post by ajford »

linsomniac wrote: post #130
readingnews wrote: post #123

After using a split spacebar for some time now, I just can not see the idea of a single spacebar being optimal. I have two thumbs. Why not use them? My right spacebar is space, my left is enter. I have never done anything else so profoundly productive to my computer.

This. But on steroids. One of the primary reasons I went with the ErgoDox was to reduce the load on my pinkies and add some load to my underused thumbs. I have left thumb doing space/backspace, and right doing enter/tab.

Same. Pinky/ring finger RSI lead me to split ergos for this same reason, landing on the Moonlander by ZSA.

I've got Space, Bk Space, Shift/(, and Alt on left thumb cluster; Enter, Tab, Shift/), and Esc/Ctrl on the right thumb cluster. Pinkies have far less to do now.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#133

Post by ajford »

cyounkins wrote: post #126
addandsubtract wrote: post #35

The problem with any non-QWERTY keyboard layout is that all app and web shortcuts go out the window. You want to save an image for the web? Good luck growing a third hand. Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Tough luck. Need to change the font size in your editor? Just navigate down these 3 easy sub-menus, because the keyboard shortcut for that is al…

Many sibling comments dismiss this as a non-issue if you've ever actually tried an alternative layout. As a Dvorak user on macOS for ~12 years, I do believe it's an issue. I use "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" as my daily driver and while it works for most applications, it's infuriating for those it doesn't. Sometimes keyboard shortcuts are control/option based without using command, so it's still in Dvorak mode. In Gimp, the Ne…

This is where programable keyboards win out when using alternative layouts.

When the layout is at the hardware level, the OS only ever sees the actual keycode for the N key, instead of an "L" which is later transcribed into "N" by the OS's layout map.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#135

Post by prirun »

godshatter wrote: post #119
prirun wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a post on HN a while back and the poster was talking about using pinky for backspace because that avoided twisting the wrist. While that is true, it requires stretching the hand and fingers. To avoid this stretch, you have to move your whole arm. I hit backspace with my ring finger because while it does require flexing the wrist a bit, it doesn't require any stretching or arm movement (on my hand). I play piano…

Interesting. I'll do that. I can't hit the key without removing my finger from the 'J' key but I can still do so if I move my wrist and not my arm.

You want to remove your finger from the J key. If you don't, you're back to stretching your hand.

Here's an experiment: stretch your hand out as wide as you can and try to move your fingers up and down. Doesn't work so great. Now leave your fingers relaxed, like they are laying on a ball and try the same motion. Much easier!

When I hit Backspace, my index finger is on the bottom edge of the 0 key, where 0, O and P intersect, because my index finger is shorter than my ring finger. While hitting Backspace, all my fingers are straight - no hand stretching. I do have pretty big hands, so that's a factor too. If I wanted to (I don't!) I could leave my index finger on J and reach backspace with my pinkie by twisting my wrist. Or I can leave it on J and stretch to reach BS with my ring finger, but that's an uncomfortable stretch that would put my head in an uproar within a day.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#136

Post by bclnr »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #81

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

I have compared keyboard layouts over several (human, European) languages, and it doesn't vary that much in practice: https://github.com/bclnr/kb-layout-evaluation

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#137

Post by kortex »

carapace wrote: post #101
AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #37

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

Simple answer is: use (self-)hypnosis. The motor cortex can be "reprogrammed" (that's a metaphor) pretty easily. You already have the muscle memories, you just need to lay in a new "key map" (that's also a metaphor.) I'll give you an example of what's possible: I was playing ukulele and a friend of mine said something about playing left-handed (I'm a righty.) I paused, went into a light trance, "rewired" my motor ski…

That's really impressive. I'm a bit skeptical at first but then I recall I've done similar feats (nowhere near as crazy) from time to time, I call it "jedi mode" when I seemingly just have a huge jump in motor cortex symmetry e.g. when juggling or spinning poi. I also taught myself to write left handed over about a few hours of bored free periods in high school. Quality is noticeably worse though.

Still, switching hands is super impressive. Were you already ambidextrous?

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#138

Post by kortex »

Has anyone already learned Dvorak and made the switch to some other "more efficient" layout, such as Colemak, Workman, Neo, this new one, etc? Has it actually been more ergonomic, efficient, and/or faster than Dvorak?

I have a Moonlander and have it totally tricked out so I have no problem with qwerty hotkey locations. It's basically just the time delta to grind a new layout. When I learned Dvorak around 2009, it took me about a month to reach parity. It might be even faster this time around since I'm constantly messing with my layout with small tweaks and having to relearn muscle memory.

Also if you aren't using some kind of layer scheme to map things like ~./()= up/down/left/right to home keys, you are really missing out :p

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#139

Post by rstacruz »

kortex wrote: post #138

Has anyone already learned Dvorak and made the switch to some other "more efficient" layout, such as Colemak, Workman, Neo, this new one, etc? Has it actually been more ergonomic, efficient, and/or faster than Dvorak? I have a Moonlander and have it totally tricked out so I have no problem with qwerty hotkey locations. It's basically just the time delta to grind a new layout. When I learned Dvorak around 2009, it too…

Me! I was a Dvorak user for around 6-8 years, but switched to Colemak mod-DH. I found it to be worth it. Colemak mod-DH is more ergonomic for ortholinear keyboards, less "alternate hand" keys, more balanced left/right hand ratio, and overall (for me) more pleasant to use.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#140

Post by carapace »

kortex wrote: post #137
carapace wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple answer is: use (self-)hypnosis. The motor cortex can be "reprogrammed" (that's a metaphor) pretty easily. You already have the muscle memories, you just need to lay in a new "key map" (that's also a metaphor.) I'll give you an example of what's possible: I was playing ukulele and a friend of mine said something about playing left-handed (I'm a righty.) I paused, went into a light trance, "rewired" my motor ski…

That's really impressive. I'm a bit skeptical at first but then I recall I've done similar feats (nowhere near as crazy) from time to time, I call it "jedi mode" when I seemingly just have a huge jump in motor cortex symmetry e.g. when juggling or spinning poi. I also taught myself to write left handed over about a few hours of bored free periods in high school. Quality is noticeably worse though. Still, switching ha…

Cheers! I really can't emphasize enough that I'm not special, I think anyone could learn to do this sort of thing if they took the time and studied. I just read some books on hypnosis and experimented.

> Were you already ambidextrous?

Nope. I'm right-handed.

Subjectively, I "went in", went through the fingers one-by-one remapping the motions, then opened my eyes, turned over the ukulele, and started playing. It was a little rough compared to the other way for a few moments and then it tightened up and was the same quality. My friend who was watching me was pretty impressed too, but I swear it was easy.

Same thing with martial arts. A friend of mine ran a kung fu studio for many years. I came by to visit one day and participated in an intro class. I could "lay in" the movements he was teaching by imitation and then repeat them perfectly. Again, everyone was impressed and said things like, "I've never seen anyone learn so fast." but it wasn't really learning the way people do it. Just like a computer doesn't need to "learn" a program, it just loads and runs. The real learning already happened back in the day when I learned-to-learn using hypnosis.

It's pretty cool to be able to do this stuff, but as with everything, there are trade-offs: my problems now are boredom and loneliness. I lot of days I feel like a time-traveler from the future. If only people would get a clue and stop running around doing things the hard way...

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