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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#91

Post by jjtheblunt »

MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years)

It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned.

Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#92

Post by missedthecue »

speedgoose wrote: post #50
elihu wrote: post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

Is safety a criteria for school bus in USA? I thought it was only cost since the design is from the last century and many bus don’t even have seatbelts.

There have been a ton of DOT and NHTSA studies that have shown that seatbelts don't keep children that much safer during accidents that involve school busses, because the children are high off the ground, busses don't move at very high speeds, 48 children wearing seatbelts makes a firefighters rescue job 100x harder, etc...

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#93

Post by AnonCoward4 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24
bell-cot wrote: post #2

Hmm...buses that (per the article) cost 2x or 3x what diesel ones would. From a company that's raising a whole lotta $$$ from VC's. And (plausibly) school districts will get rid of their old diesel bus fleets when they switch over... Is anyone else suspecting an "of course we'll loose money like crazy, until we hit 'em with the massive price increase" business model? EDIT: Wow, huge response. 3 points to add: - Yes,…

This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. If people just look at the upfront cost, they have that 2x or 3x gut reaction and just switch off. Some nerdier types might draw up a spreadsheet and know exactly how many months they'd expect to break even and start saving. People familiar with spreadsheets probably also don't have that much trouble getting loans and paying…

I want to see that spreadsheet.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#94

Post by fasteddie31003 »

Gracana wrote: post #74
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #15

I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. My 7,000 lbs truck with a Cummins diesel engine gets better MPGs than my partner's 4,000 lbs Mini Cooper Countryman.

What is your truck? RAM 3500s with Cummins diesels come in 7000lb configurations, but we're talking ~15mpg, nowhere close to a countryman.

My 03 Ram 2500 gets 24 MPG

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#95

Post by me_me_mu_mu »

When I was a kid like 15 years ago we'd walk to school if it was close. I took the bus until middle school which was like 1 mile away.

I hope car usage goes down, especially a single person driving a big SUV. Walk, or bike, to where you need to go. Less cars, more safe.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#96

Post by sokoloff »

ilikeatari wrote: post #37

Personally I am very exited about it but we lack data that does allow us to do proper TCO comparison of ICE vs EV on the heavy duty side. Also how does V2G economics actually work if you are trying to optimize for the lowest charging rate (usually during night to avoid peak)? If you are in V2G mode after 6 pm i assume you would need to start charging at night during cheapest rates and assure that the bus is charged b…

Any overnight charging solution almost surely needs a 1-to-1 ratio anyway, because you're probably not going to pay an expensive and unreliable human to plug and unplug buses overnight every night when a charger will last 10+ years. You're already paying the bus driver to park the bus and to drive it away in the morning. Add a minute of bus driver labor to plug it in and a minute to unplug it in the morning.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#97

Post by sp332 »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #91
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

It's much cleaner, even after accounting for losses in electricity transport and storage. Power plants are just much more efficient than mobile internal combustion engines.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#98

Post by shiftpgdn »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #91
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

Yes because the coal burning is done at a central location with fairly advanced technology to capture dirty hydrocarbons. The tailpipe is spreading soot all over.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#99

Post by bpodgursky »

speedgoose wrote: post #50
elihu wrote: post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

Is safety a criteria for school bus in USA? I thought it was only cost since the design is from the last century and many bus don’t even have seatbelts.

IIRC the conclusion was that requiring seat belts slows down the loading / unloading process and decreases ridership enough that more kids will actually get hurt when their parents drive them to school instead (since cars are far more dangerous to riders than giant heavy slow-moving busses).

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#100

Post by [deleted] »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #91
MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

[deleted]
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