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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

canarymedia.com

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#31

Post by bsder »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #15

I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. My 7,000 lbs truck with a Cummins diesel engine gets better MPGs than my partner's 4,000 lbs Mini Cooper Countryman.

Except that a school bus tends to operate a diesel in its worst conditions.

Lots of idling. Lots of low RPM operation. Lots of stop and start wasting a lot of energy into the brakes.

A school bus is practically engineered to be an EV propaganda piece.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#32

Post by ilikeatari »

danans wrote: post #22
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #15

I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. My 7,000 lbs truck with a Cummins diesel engine gets better MPGs than my partner's 4,000 lbs Mini Cooper Countryman.

> Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. All else equal (vehicle class, size, performance, driving style), the operating cost per mile of an EV is 1/4 to 1/2 the operating cost per mile of a diesel or gasoline vehicle, even in states with very expensive electricity like California or Hawaii.

Is there a specific data set you are referencing? How about other components like Ownership and Support?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#33

Post by thehappypm »

bnt wrote: post #10
sockaddr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not ideal, the alternative is kids continuing to sit in buses that idle for long periods of time slowly leaking diesel exhaust into the cabin area (at least that was the case with the Bluebird models I rode as a kid), that can't be good.

Yea, here the batteries catch fire and a bunch of kids burn to death. Grim, but possible.

Right, because diesel buses are totally not flammable at all.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#34

Post by JumpCrisscross »

roughly wrote: post #29
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. If people just look at the upfront cost, they have that 2x or 3x gut reaction and just switch off. Some nerdier types might draw up a spreadsheet and know exactly how many months they'd expect to break even and start saving. People familiar with spreadsheets probably also don't have that much trouble getting loans and paying…

It's not just the cost over time, it's the availability of capital in large clumps - also known as "the cost of being poor:" It may be 5x cheaper in the long run to pay 3x the cost today, but if you don't have 3x the cost today, well, good luck.

Capex Opex swaps are pretty common, and it's not just a matter of poverty. (It's why airlines lease their planes.) Swap "subscribe" with "lease" and this article becomes less interesting.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#36

Post by roughly »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #34
roughly wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the cost over time, it's the availability of capital in large clumps - also known as "the cost of being poor:" It may be 5x cheaper in the long run to pay 3x the cost today, but if you don't have 3x the cost today, well, good luck.

Capex Opex swaps are pretty common, and it's not just a matter of poverty. (It's why airlines lease their planes.) Swap "subscribe" with "lease" and this article becomes less interesting.

> Swap "subscribe" with "lease" and this article becomes less interesting

To VCs, too

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#37

Post by ilikeatari »

Personally I am very exited about it but we lack data that does allow us to do proper TCO comparison of ICE vs EV on the heavy duty side. Also how does V2G economics actually work if you are trying to optimize for the lowest charging rate (usually during night to avoid peak)? If you are in V2G mode after 6 pm i assume you would need to start charging at night during cheapest rates and assure that the bus is charged by 5 am. Wouldn't this require 1 to 1 charger to bus ratio as you might not have enough time to swap? Wouldn't then infrastructure costs(chargers that are build and concrete around it) skyrocket?

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#38

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ilikeatari wrote: post #37

Personally I am very exited about it but we lack data that does allow us to do proper TCO comparison of ICE vs EV on the heavy duty side. Also how does V2G economics actually work if you are trying to optimize for the lowest charging rate (usually during night to avoid peak)? If you are in V2G mode after 6 pm i assume you would need to start charging at night during cheapest rates and assure that the bus is charged b…

> we lack data that does allow us to do proper TCO comparison of ICE vs EV on the heavy duty side

These districts have transferred that risk to the provider. Which seems reasonable.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#39

Post by arcticbull »

Nasrudith wrote: post #7
pengaru wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "subscribed" buses will be privately owned and operated, they'll be increasingly filled with advertising and other predatory bullshit for exploiting the passengers.

So like city buses?

Not really, no. City busses recognize revenue from advertising and use it to subsidize fares. Being a public service, the public benefits. On the other hand, private bus fleets with private advertisements on loan to school districts will recognize that advertising revenue as profit, benefiting shareholders. Not everything needs a profit motive.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#40

Post by colincooke »

Due to the usage patterns of the bus fleet I wonder if they could be used for some vehicle to grid [1] power bank on weekends/during weekday downtime? It might shorten the lifetime of the batteries themselves but would be a nice additional revenue stream.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

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