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AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

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Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#191

Post by toast0 »

gumby wrote: post #175
thebeardisred wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To this day I wish things like WWV ( https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-di... ) worked better. Folks from Ninja Networks attempted to use something like that on their DEFCON 17 badges ( https://www.wired.com/2009/08/hacking-the-defcon-17-badges/ ) but it required folks to be stationary too long to sync time. Seeing as most major appliances are stationary it would have struck me as a good fit (w…

> but it required folks to be stationary too long to sync time. I don't understand this constraint as it was possible to buy wristwatches that could do this back in the early 1990s and probably earlier (that was when I saw one for the first time).

Wristwatches often have at least sometime outdoors where signal propigation is going to be way better.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#192

Post by pixl97 »

causality0 wrote: post #137
fatnoah wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting a kitchen upgrade, and the number of "connected" kitchen appliances is astonishing. I don't need my faucet to have Alexa, I don't want to read news on my refrigerator, and I don't want an app for my oven. I'm not aware of any companies keeping servers running for a product that matches the life expectancy of a kitchen appliance, nor do I want an AWS outage to keep me from making nachos.

It's the same horseshit with smart thermostats. I expect a thermostat to last ten years minimum, if not twenty or thirty. How many times do these companies have to fuck their customers before people stop buying them? The very instant you become more profitable to abandon than to support everything you bought will stop working. If it can happen to Revolv customers it can happen to you. I recently bought a thirty year…

Dont worry, by 2035 or manufacturers will buy laws requiring all appliances to last only 5 years at most. It will be like the right to read, but for physical artifacts.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#193

Post by jhbadger »

wubbert wrote: post #91
Nextgrid wrote: post #52

Why is there no user-facing firmware update/recovery feature, so that at least tech-savvy users can resolve the issue themselves? Or a reset feature that reverts to the factory firmware located on a separate, read-only chip? Ah yes, it's to prevent people downgrading or running "unauthorized" firmware when they inevitably start adding user-hostile "features".

A better question is, why do microwave ovens now need internet connections and software updates?

Obviously this is a good example of what can go wrong with it, but there is a real benefit to updating software in an appliance, just as there is in say, a gaming console. It used to be that when a console or appliance was shipped, that was it. If there were bugs, there were bugs. Couldn't be helped. Now bugs can be fixed.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#194

Post by voakbasda »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #79
chihuahua wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miele

Yeah, but their pricing is just insane. Far out of the reach of the middle class, at least in Europe. I would say Siemens and Bosch are solid while still being affordable.

Bosch pulls the same kind of user-hostile shenanigans as described herein. Any appliance connected to the internet should be tossed in the trash.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#195

Post by marcodiego »

Software on appliances have on reason to exist: lock users from acessing advanced features without paying an extra price for it. Although even Stallman once said he doesn't care about what his oven is running[0], I think we all should.

[0]: https://lwn.net/2000/0601/

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#196

Post by currency »

zepearl wrote: post #165
apexalpha wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I can think of a few options: - Pre heat oven remotely - Check on the food remotely - Have (and update) settings for specific food? I mean it's not the worst thing to connect online.

I would never ever dare to preheat remotely (and having an open Internet connection that has the potential to allow that would be a nightmare for me). My current owen actually forces me to at least open once the hatch before allowing it to be switched on (I guess that it's to force me to check if anything was previously left inside).

Being able to turn on cooking appliances remotely couldn't possibly go wrong[0].

/sarcasm

[0]https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Fire-causes-and-risks/...

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#197

Post by noveltyaccount »

wubbert wrote: post #91
Nextgrid wrote: post #52

Why is there no user-facing firmware update/recovery feature, so that at least tech-savvy users can resolve the issue themselves? Or a reset feature that reverts to the factory firmware located on a separate, read-only chip? Ah yes, it's to prevent people downgrading or running "unauthorized" firmware when they inevitably start adding user-hostile "features".

A better question is, why do microwave ovens now need internet connections and software updates?

I have a few Bosch appliances internet-connected. Getting a push notification when the fridge/freezer door is open is nice if you're not near enough to hear the unit beeping. And when a timer elapses on the cooktop I get a push - again, nice if I'm not within earshot.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#198

Post by sebazzz »

gpvos wrote: post #89
Nextgrid wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need extra hardware. Most routers have some rudimentary TFTP boot mode that can be accessed by powering it up while holding a certain button. The device already has Wi-Fi, so the same mechanism can be used - if powered up in recovery mode, it'll scan for a specific SSID and then TFTP boot from a specific IP on there.

The percentage of microwave users that could perform such a trick rounds down to zero.

True, but is still easier than to replace the PCB or the entire unit. A technician might need 15 minutes to do the procedure.

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#199

Post by moepstar »

saiya-jin wrote: post #150
hnhg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They supply white label items to Ikea too, at least in parts of Europe.

Yeah and they are very much subpar, same as Whirlpool cca 12 years ago also sold through Ikea. Bought some kitchen appliances when buying Ikea kitchens (twice), all had some minor or not so minor issues. Whirlpool fridge had door isolation strip uneven resulting in some heat coming in, from Day 1. Induction stove had few flat touch buttons responding only to strong pressure, kind of randomly, also Day 1. Electrolux -…

> Its Siemens, Bosch and Miele, but mainly Bosch which doesn't command Miele's high price and reliability/features are OK for us.

From my experience, you can't go wrong with either of those - and, just in case you didn't know already, Siemens and Bosch are basically one - even operating under "BSH", Bosch/Siemens Home Appliances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te

That also means that each company basically has their own version of each product - i.e. the same fridge with slightly different features (different tray combinations/heights/...) are available from both (varying model # of course) - and one may be even a little cheaper than the other...

Re: AEG combi microwave unusable after update: device thinks it is a steam oven

#200

Post by InitialLastName »

jaywalk wrote: post #71
RobertMiller wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can't be turned on remotely unless I press a button on the oven itself, and even then it'll only allow it once. That it's possible at all suggests that the oven is only one bad firmware update away from turning itself on when you don't intend it. Conceivably such a limitation could be built into the hardware; e.g. with a button that works like a circuit breaker. Set to break after the oven starts once and requir…

I agree with you. But it's just the oven, so the risk is just wasting some gas and heating my house up a little until I notice. The cooktop burners can't be operated remotely, so there's no risk of unintended open flames. Also, because of the crappy WiFi it's almost never connected anyway.

Your modern oven probably has an electronically controlled ignition instead of a pilot light. What would stop the oven from opening the gas valves without igniting, potentially creating a high-risk situation if there are any issues with the seal?
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