An AI designed keyboard layout (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#111

Post by kortex » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

addandsubtract wrote: post #35

The problem with any non-QWERTY keyboard layout is that all app and web shortcuts go out the window. You want to save an image for the web? Good luck growing a third hand. Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Tough luck. Need to change the font size in your editor? Just navigate down these 3 easy sub-menus, because the keyboard shortcut for that is al…

I ran into this and I run some flavor of Dvorak on everything. Once I got my Zsa keyboards (first an Ergodox then a Moonlander, I love both but slightly prefer the moonlander) I added a level shift which makes it issue Command+. You can do the same with a regular keyboard in linux (haven't tried but I know it's possible with xkb) or mac (karabiner I think?).

I have 16 layers of possible keys activated by thumb chords (though in practice my brain runs out of awareness of different combos far before my ~1000 unique keys). So I just dedicate a layer to this pseudo-qwerty.

Need to get around to writing that emoji layer...

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#112

Post by gotaquestion » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

jonnycomputer wrote: post #81

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

It also doesn't consider two-key combinations, which are key for developers (not just EMACS folks).

Apple's CMD-C/CMD-V is one of the least ergonomic patterns I've encountered in keyboard design compared to CTRL-C/CTRL-V. Yes, I know you can remap keys from within macOS, but it is a nightmare if you are using VNC + Windows Remote to access other machines (granted, that isn't a common use case, but it is mine).

Pinky-C/Pinky-V/Pinky-Esc is a valid pattern for I would guess lots of developers who were raised on Atom/Sublime/VSCode.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#113

Post by njsubedi » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 6:50 PM UTC

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #105

One issue I've always had with QWERTY (and probably this new layout as well) is that "similar" letters are often next to each other on the keyboard, making typo detection nearly impossible in English. For instance, in English, many short words with a "i" as the only vowel remain a valid word when the "i" is replaced by an "o" or a "u" -- pit/pot/put, bit/bot/but, tip/top/tup, pig/pog/pug, bitch/butch/botch, etc. This…

New idea: AI generated least-error prone swipe keyboard.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#114

Post by codedokode » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

As we are discussing layouts, I would like to point to a bigger problem (in my opinion) with keyboards: they don't have enough keys.

Let me explain. While Latin alphabet has only 26 letters, many languages have more of them. For example, Russian alphabet has 33 letters. Therefore, to fit these letters there must be 7 more keys. But we also need two keys to switch layouts - so in total there should be 9 extra keys.

Sadly, manufacturers (including Apple that claims to "think different", but in this case thinks exactly the same as PC vendors) don't want to add even a single key, instead they put extra letters onto keys with symbols, so you have to switch layouts to type those symbols. Furthermore, several characters like period or comma are located on different keys in different layouts. Guess, how easy it becomes to make a mistake.

Switching layouts is inconvenient. Instead of having two dedicated keys for switching to each language, OS vendors add single switching combination like Shift + Alt (Windows) or Cmd + Space (Mac). Also, on keyboard itself there is no indication that these keys can switch layout.

One could argue that it is difficult to find more space on laptops. Well, I think that this can be solved somehow. For example, one could add an extra row. But it is absolutely possible on desktop PC keyboards, and yet nobody is doing this.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#115

Post by aivisol » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

xcambar wrote: post #14

aivisol wrote: post #8

What about digits?

the very top row of the very first screenshot has what you're looking for.

I see that. I mean why they are not shuffled

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#116

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

I like it just because it will annoy fellow vim users who brag about never having to leave the home row to move around a buffer.

(You can remap, but you must also remap your muscle memory)

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#117

Post by blacklion » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

addandsubtract wrote: post #35

The problem with any non-QWERTY keyboard layout is that all app and web shortcuts go out the window. You want to save an image for the web? Good luck growing a third hand. Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Tough luck. Need to change the font size in your editor? Just navigate down these 3 easy sub-menus, because the keyboard shortcut for that is al…

Problem with shortcuts is much deeper if you have more than one layout (say, English and Russian).

It is problem both for MacOS and Windows, my examples will be for Windows, but MacOS has exactly the same problem.

Imagine, you have two keyboard layouts installed: English (standard one, QWERTY) and Russian (standard one, ЙЦУКЕН, but it doesn't matter).

Typical shortcut for "Open File" is Ctrl+O (O is English O). This key in QWERTY is on top row, on the right part of keyboard. Russian layout has letter Щ on same key. You can press Ctrl+O when English layout is active or you can press Ctrl+Щ when Russian layout is active, it will work the same: activate Ctrl+O shortcut, and shows you "Open File" dialog.

Now Imagine you have combination of English Dvorak layout and same Russian ЙЦУКЕН layout.

Open File shortcut now uses DIFFERENT KEYS in DIFFERENT LAYOUTS. When Dvorak is active you need to press Ctrl+O, where "O" is in the middle row, on the left. This key is Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН layout. Sounds good so far. But when Russian layout is active you need to press... Can you guess? No, not Ctrl+Ы (where Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН is same key as English "O" in Dvorak), but Ctrl+Щ, as if your English layout is still QWERTY.

It is sick. It makes using shortcuts almost impossible - shortcuts become dependent on current active language!

And what is worse, some programs (Google Docs is one example) refuse to use Ctrl+Ins/Shift+Ins and requires Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V for clipboard operations.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#118

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

medstrom wrote: post #53

Y'all need to know the background of past efforts [1], people keep making the same observations over and over again as if they're new. In the area of computer-generated layouts, there's been lots of rich discussion on the AdNW [2] and MTGAP [3] projects. For "improving Dvorak", that was solved back in 2004 with Capewell-Dvorak [4]. To the author: what is supposed to be AI here? I don't see a mention of a ML method or…

Evolutionary algorithms are a form of machine learning and an established branch of artificial intelligence research. See e.g. wikipedia page with box "Part of a series on Artificial Intelligence":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_algorithm

Are you using "AI" to mean "deep learning"?

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#119

Post by godshatter » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

prirun wrote: post #108

godshatter wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for being proficient in two keyboard layouts (I call it "bikeyboardal"), it's definitely possible. I type extensively at work in QWERTY and extensively at home in dvorak. I can mentally switch without taking a hit. Sometimes I'll come into work on a Monday and start furiously typing in dvorak and have to delete it and switch. It's just a mental on/off switch, though. Once I remember to type in the correct layout,…

I saw a post on HN a while back and the poster was talking about using pinky for backspace because that avoided twisting the wrist. While that is true, it requires stretching the hand and fingers. To avoid this stretch, you have to move your whole arm. I hit backspace with my ring finger because while it does require flexing the wrist a bit, it doesn't require any stretching or arm movement (on my hand). I play piano…

Interesting. I'll do that. I can't hit the key without removing my finger from the 'J' key but I can still do so if I move my wrist and not my arm.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#120

Post by doubled112 » Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #105

One issue I've always had with QWERTY (and probably this new layout as well) is that "similar" letters are often next to each other on the keyboard, making typo detection nearly impossible in English. For instance, in English, many short words with a "i" as the only vowel remain a valid word when the "i" is replaced by an "o" or a "u" -- pit/pot/put, bit/bot/but, tip/top/tup, pig/pog/pug, bitch/butch/botch, etc. This…

I've had a number of, perhaps inappropriate, typos in work messages thanks to the letters directly to the left or right.

I'd never thought of optimizing a layout so that typos are obvious nonsense. At the same time, I think I'd find a way regardless.

Some real examples include:

"Any update on your free/busty time?" instead of busy.

"It is just milf kitty indigestion" instead of mild.

You just have to hope your client or coworker makes typos too, and finds amusement in it.