Live data from Hacker News

An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

github.com

101–110 of 147 posts

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#101

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

Simple answer is: use (self-)hypnosis.

The motor cortex can be "reprogrammed" (that's a metaphor) pretty easily. You already have the muscle memories, you just need to lay in a new "key map" (that's also a metaphor.)

I'll give you an example of what's possible: I was playing ukulele and a friend of mine said something about playing left-handed (I'm a righty.) I paused, went into a light trance, "rewired" my motor skills from left to right and vice versa, and then opened my eyes, turned over the uke, and started playing left-handed. It took maybe twenty seconds.

(I'm not saying the above to show off. I'm not special. Anyone can do this, you just have to learn how to operate your own nervous system.)

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#102
post #99

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

I have not seen from your comment where is the difference between layouts for different activities. Isn't Programmer Dvorak enough optimized for Perl? Because for writing some graphomania any Dvorak fits just perfect. I can not even imagine a reason for having several different layouts for same Latin letters.

APL has had dedicated keyboard layouts since its inception, but that might be a bit unusual.

If you lisp, you might want easily accessible parenthesis. In C, semicolon is useful. Bash uses dollar and sharp a lot.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#103

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

> Is it really possible to improve 42 years typing practice with a new layout?

In my experience with dvorak no after testing for two years I had the same wpm as qwerty. If you can touch type you have maxed out your speed, the tiny reduction in travel time for your fingers just doesn't add up to anything measurable.

> Is it possible to be proficient in two keyboard layouts at the same time?

I can switch between mac and pc layout no problems, but when I learned to touch type on dvorak I forgot how to do it with qwerty. When I used a friends computer with qwerty I was searching for every key with two fingers hovered over the keyboard like a raptor. Maybe others can do it but I defiantly couldn't and found it very embarrassing to not be able to touch type.

> If you get accustomed to a non-standard keyboard layout, isn't it a problem if you have to use some other computer.

Yes! You look like its your first day using a computer. Once I could touch type I didn't really care what the key caps said and its fairly easy to switch between dvorak and qwerty on windows and I don't use other peoples computers often so it wasn't a deal breaker.

The only benefit I seen from using dvorak was that no one else could use my computer, as soon as they realised it wasn't qwerty they ran.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#104

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

> Is it really possible to improve 42 years typing practice with a new layout?

Definitely NO, the reasons I have written down in another branch of this topic. Maybe your grandkids would have a chance to get rid from a layout with "typewriter" word on an upper row for some marketing goals.

> - Is it possible to be proficient in two keyboard layouts at the same time?

I know a guy who uses Programmer Dvorak for emacs and QWERTY for rest of his life. It is hard to understand why he is doing so but I know this is possible. Maybe he just wants to get rid of anything except emacs :)

> - If you get accustomed to a non-standard keyboard layout, isn't it a problem if you have to use some other computer (where you cannot change the layout) for whatever reason, for example in an Internet cafe?

Yes, typing QWERTY is a problem for me, but there are not any Internet cafes nowadays. I mean if I need to enter my email into somebody's device I will do it in one-finger mode while everybody thinks I am kidding. If it is needed to write more than one line on somebody's PC there are always some ways to negotiate.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#105
One issue I've always had with QWERTY (and probably this new layout as well) is that "similar" letters are often next to each other on the keyboard, making typo detection nearly impossible in English. For instance, in English, many short words with a "i" as the only vowel remain a valid word when the "i" is replaced by an "o" or a "u" -- pit/pot/put, bit/bot/but, tip/top/tup, pig/pog/pug, bitch/butch/botch, etc. This means if you go to hit the "i" key but accidentally hit the "u" or "o" keys, the typo won't necessarily look like a typo to either to the author or the reader.

Similarly with "s" and "d" -- pretty much every verb can be conjugated to end with either an "s" or a "d", so if you press "d" when you meant to press "s" or vice versa, it probably remains a valid verb, and thus is harder to catch.

For these purposes, my ideal layout would have interchangeable letters sufficiently far apart from each other to make typo detection+resolution easier. The most commonly used letters should be surrounded by the least commonly used letters so that, for instance, if you "jqb" I know you meant "job" and not, say, "jib".

This would also make swipe typing on phones far easier to use, as it would be much less ambiguous which letters you were aiming for.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#106

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

I'm 50 and learned to touch type years before there were personal computers. I switched to Colemak a couple of years ago and it took a year to get really proficient.

I can no longer type in Querty, though I have no trouble using swipe keyboards on phones. I'm a faster typer now.

But the real benefit is that it no longer hurts to type. Typing in Querty hurt my hands after a while to the point where I couldn't type or use a mouse. Typing in Colemak fixed that, even though most of my work is on my non-ergonomic Macbook keyboard.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#107

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

> Is it really possible to improve 42 years typing practice with a new layout? In my experience with dvorak no after testing for two years I had the same wpm as qwerty. If you can touch type you have maxed out your speed, the tiny reduction in travel time for your fingers just doesn't add up to anything measurable. > Is it possible to be proficient in two keyboard layouts at the same time? I can switch between mac an…

> I can switch between mac and pc layout no problems, but when I learned to touch type on dvorak I forgot how to do it with qwerty. When I used a friends computer with qwerty I was searching for every key with two fingers hovered over the keyboard like a raptor. Maybe others can do it but I defiantly couldn't and found it very embarrassing to not be able to touch type.

It takes practice. I switched to Dvorak around 2001/2002, and my QWERTY typing speed dropped from 50-60wpm down to about 10. But I then spent a lot of time in offices and labs where I didn't have control over the computers, they were closer to "kiosk" systems (single-user). I could have added Dvorak, but it would have been a bit rude. If I forgot to change it back it would create confusion. If I had a keyboard shortcut to switch layouts, it could create confusion. And having to manually change it was too tedious to bother with, for me. So I just sucked it up and used Dvorak on my own workstation and at home, and QWERTY in the lab environments. I got my QWERTY speed back up to 50-60, and my Dvorak speed never dropped below 100.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#108

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

As for being proficient in two keyboard layouts (I call it "bikeyboardal"), it's definitely possible. I type extensively at work in QWERTY and extensively at home in dvorak. I can mentally switch without taking a hit. Sometimes I'll come into work on a Monday and start furiously typing in dvorak and have to delete it and switch. It's just a mental on/off switch, though. Once I remember to type in the correct layout,…

I saw a post on HN a while back and the poster was talking about using pinky for backspace because that avoided twisting the wrist. While that is true, it requires stretching the hand and fingers. To avoid this stretch, you have to move your whole arm.

I hit backspace with my ring finger because while it does require flexing the wrist a bit, it doesn't require any stretching or arm movement (on my hand). I play piano, and figuring out which fingers to use is a big deal to minimize stretching that can lead to tension.

So for anyone stretching their hand or fingers to reach keys, I'd suggest you give a longer finger a try. I touch type also, but never use my pinkies for anything on the number row.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#109

This feels like over fitting if it's not allowed to make basic changes like a capslock being control when held and escape when used on its own. There's a bunch of things like that which would have a bigger impact if they could be measured but are ignored by this methodology. I use standard Dvorak, but thumb keys are the real game changer (the Kinesis introduced me to them) so CMD keys that act as backspace and enter…

[deleted]

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#110

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

That reminds me of keyboard heat maps for programming languages: https://g-liu.com/blog/2013/09/reblog-programming-languages-... (the winner being, obviously, LISP :-))
Post reply on HN