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An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

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Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#91

Post by vollmond »

AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #63
adamhp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you bring up really great points, and it's probably the main reason there isn't more heterogeneity. There is a nice middle ground though, in customizable keyboards with macro buttons. I have the ErgoDox which is a split keyboard with these columns of three keys on each side of the split, and a cluster of thumb buttons. Really is nifty (once you get used to it) for programming. Even simple things like having o…

> I have the ErgoDox This keyboard sure looks extremely nice! The price tag, though! On the other hand, the keyboard is my main tools of trade, and the perfect solution is certainly worth a price between 250 to 400 bucks. I would want to try the hardware before doing the investment. That could actually be a business: renting out keyboards for evaluation.

I use a Keebio Iris [0] which is similar to a stripped-down ErgoDox. Careful part selection (especially keycaps) could have one for [0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#92

Post by siver_john »

AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #37

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

Just to add my two cents as someone who recently switched to Colemak-DH after getting a moonlander (I used a das ultimate for years though), but I am currently typing this on my laptop using QWERTY.

I feel like switching between the two isn't always 100% painless with a small lag time especially if I've been away from one or the other a few days while using the other one predominantly. But generally it's not too bad. The worst of it being typing on my laptop, messaging friends late at night and having a sudden forgetfulness which is easily overcome by just looking at the keyboard for a moment while typing till my hands remember.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#94

Post by minimilian »

eimrine wrote: post #79
minimilian wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean, but don't you agree that, if we take 0 to come before 1 and not after 9, there's an asymmetry between the left and the right hand?

Both yes and not. There is some asymmetry in wrist's angle but there is kind of a symmetry that you have two keys left from our 7 and two keys right from my 8 (your 6). If I understood your POV correctly then you seems to consider the position of [ and ] symbols in Programmer Dvorak as symmetric for you.

No, on a regular keyboard I regard 4 as corresponding to 7, since they are both pressed by the index finger directly above the home position. I see the numbers as split in odd and even between the left and the right hand.

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Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#95

Post by vladvasiliu »

eimrine wrote: post #59
vladvasiliu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably it is because I am a piano player since 2016 and the fingers which are weak on average people are not that weak for me This reminds of my situation. I'm not a piano player, and I used to type with basically two fingers (plus thumb for space and pinky for ctrl/alt/shift). Since I've started trying to use more fingers, I've noticed that using a traditional, non split keyboard, is more painful, because it req…

> I've noticed that using a traditional, non split keyboard, is more painful, because it requires me to twist my wrists sideways I have never used a split (which almost always is an ortholinear and not requires any twist) but my experience tells me than I am twisting not a wrist but only one finger, while 9 others just resting on a home row. I do not understand how it is possible to touchtype while you are twisting y…

The split I use is the MS Sculpt, which is regular, not ortholinear.

The only way I've ever used a laptop with a position of the display kinda comfortable while also being able to type was with a bed tablet [0]. I've always actively avoided laptops with numpads, so the keyboard was always well-centered, at least as much as a desktop one, so no issue with staying on finding the home row.

[0] Something like this: https://www.amazon.fr/Cooper-ordinateur-portable-r%C3%A9glab...

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#96

Post by ajoy »

Something I was developing on my spare time :) : https://github.com/aj0y/fitjoy

The main difference with other layouts is that I take finger length into account. (Eg. the pinky is usually much shorter than your ring finger, so putting them all on the same row means your ring finger need to curl up more and less relaxed). Also tried to reduce changes to the most common shortcuts we (programmers) use.

Feedback welcome!

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#97

Post by godshatter »

AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #37

Alternative keyboard layouts are fascinating, but always raise a couple of questions for me and I wonder if anyone here can come up with actual experiences regarding the following topics: - I have been using standard german QWERTZ for about 42 years now, in average certainly not less than 3 hours every day. I was originally educated in proper 10 finger blind typing in a dedicated typing school as part of my typesette…

As for being proficient in two keyboard layouts (I call it "bikeyboardal"), it's definitely possible. I type extensively at work in QWERTY and extensively at home in dvorak. I can mentally switch without taking a hit. Sometimes I'll come into work on a Monday and start furiously typing in dvorak and have to delete it and switch. It's just a mental on/off switch, though. Once I remember to type in the correct layout, I'm just as fast.

It took me a long time to get there, though. As soon as I started learning dvorak I lost most of my proficiency in qwerty and for a long ramping up time measured in weeks, I would be terrible in both. Muscle memory is strong. I kept having to figure out which layout I was using at the muscle/nerve level. So learning a new layout, especially when you've been typing so long, will be a hit on your productivity and will be a lesson in humility (at least it was for me as I naively assumed it would be easy). I'm a touch typist who doesn't look at the actual keys much, if that helps.

The only thing that bothers me about typing in dvorak is that a lot of games or programs want to use WASD or hjkl to control a game or to move the cursor around. I have learned to use dvorak in vim without issue, but if I'm playing a roguelike (angband, for example) I'll switch back to qwerty to make it easier. On the plus side, it completely solved the problem I was having, which was pain in my pinky fingers and the side of my hand. That went away after I added dvorak and never came back.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#98

Post by dangerface »

I used dvorak for two years got no benefit from it. It was no more comfortable than touch typing on qwerty, words per minute (a pathetic 80) and accuracy was the same.

Switching between dvorak and a qwerty keyboard was impossible even tho I knew how to touch type on both.

The big win from my dvorak experiment was learning that when coding typing speed doesn't matter. I spend more time thinking about my code than implementing it, removing shortened non descriptive variables or functions with long winded names has improved my productivity immensely.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#99

Post by eimrine »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #81

It occurs to me that optimal keyboard layouts depend primarily on use cases: by human language, by activity, and so on. I might well imagine that a Perl-optimized keyboard layout would look different than one intended for writing fiction, and so on.

I have not seen from your comment where is the difference between layouts for different activities. Isn't Programmer Dvorak enough optimized for Perl? Because for writing some graphomania any Dvorak fits just perfect. I can not even imagine a reason for having several different layouts for same Latin letters.

Re: An AI designed keyboard layout (2021)

#100

Post by gigaflop »

AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #63
adamhp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you bring up really great points, and it's probably the main reason there isn't more heterogeneity. There is a nice middle ground though, in customizable keyboards with macro buttons. I have the ErgoDox which is a split keyboard with these columns of three keys on each side of the split, and a cluster of thumb buttons. Really is nifty (once you get used to it) for programming. Even simple things like having o…

> I have the ErgoDox This keyboard sure looks extremely nice! The price tag, though! On the other hand, the keyboard is my main tools of trade, and the perfect solution is certainly worth a price between 250 to 400 bucks. I would want to try the hardware before doing the investment. That could actually be a business: renting out keyboards for evaluation.

I value my input devices, for they are the tools with which I interface to the world.

If you want to dip your toes into custom keyboards, I'd recommend finding some 60%-ish board with hotswap switch sockets, since that will let you experiment with the choice of switches before you have to worry about soldering anything. Plenty of 60s are available as kits, or just interchangeable parts.

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