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Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

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Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#111

Where is the energy coming from to sequester the CO2? I hope it won't be from fossil fuels.

Hi, great question, I hope we addressed it here from comment above:

"Right now, there is an ongoing discussion between a huge variety of stakeholders -- CO2 removal startups/companies, academics, regulators, 3rd-party verification standard-setting bodies, etc. -- to figure out what kind of life cycle analyses (LCAs) are required at the planning stages, and what verification frameworks will be needed post-capture/sequestration stages, to ensure that CO2 removal from air is removing more CO2 than it emits. In many of these discussions, and in the studies/analyses which drive them, moving to cleaner sources of energy makes a lot more sense given the total CO2 removed vs. CO2 produced/embodied in the system.

It is a complicated question and it really depends on what temperatures your process requires, where in the world you decide to build your removal system, if cleaner energy is available there (& at what cost), how you need to compress/store/transport the CO2 so it can be injected or converted into something else, and so on. Cleaner energy like geothermal, solar, nuclear, hydro, etc. are not always co-located near the best injection sites and there are questions of whether DAC is the best usage for cleaner energy resources vs. for general grid deployment.

To make a very long story short, cleaner energy makes CO2 removal a lot more sensible to pursue at scale, so that is where we are aiming as we think about the long-term system design."

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#112
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO2 is in the dense supercritical state at the temperature and pressure conditions in storage reservoirs. It's density is between 750 and 850 kg/m3 then (water is 1000). You just have to compress it and pump it down there, and it will stay like that. Honestly, the storage part is a solved problem from the feasibility side. The remaining challenges are mainly cost optimization, across all of capture, transport and sto…

I agree with your thermodynamics, I'm just concerned about finding a volume big enough to store climatically meaningful amounts of CO2 in that form. 40 billion metric tons per year of CO2 in the form you describe is around 30 billion cubic meters, and you need to find that much storage volume every year just to keep things from getting worse. If you want to actually make a dent, like rolling things back to the year 2…

If you asked a pre-industrial person how in the world it would be possible to source, refine, and distribute enough crude oil to power the modern world they would quote some similarly breathless numbers. It's possible because there's a motivation to do it. Simple as that. If we had a similar level of motivation to sequester our excess carbon we could start planning to do that tomorrow and have it done within a decade or three. You can't sequester all the worlds carbon in one place, just like you don't pull it all out of the ground in one place. Big problems seem less so when you realize that solutions are usually distributed.

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#113

Can someone explain the concept of a ton of air to me? Is the air measure as if it was compressed into a solid?

The relationship between pressure, volume, and temperature for 1 ton of air (mass) can be characterized reasonably well by the ideal gas law PV=nRT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, it's >5MWh/ton using lab scale equipment. At 1 million ton per year scale, we expect closer to 1-2MWh/ton.

Does that exclude the energy cost involved in injecting CO2 into a reservoir? Also, what would be the energy cost of converting captured CO2 to a more stable form (CaCO3, aka limestone), or a commodity such as methanol?

The energy estimate includes the costs of compression & injection using some figures in publicly available resources that look at CO2 removal end-to-end. Co-locating the capture as close as possible to removal/injection site (e.g. minimizing transit logistics) helps to keep the energy & financial costs low.

However at this stage, we are more focused on scaling our capture process so it can be integrated to injection/sequestration later on at a pilot plant scale.

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#115
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, it's >5MWh/ton using lab scale equipment. At 1 million ton per year scale, we expect closer to 1-2MWh/ton.

That's >18 GJ/tonne, with a goal of 3.6 to 7.2 GJ/tonne, making it much less efficient than post-combustion capture (which I think tends to aim for Why not just do post-combustion capture if it's cheaper and more effective?

It should be done more but stronger tax & regulatory incentives are needed to encourage point-source polluters to adopt CO2 capture for emissions from industrial processes & energy production. It is very difficult to convince, say, a software company to pay for/subsidize the cleanup of another company's/utility's dirty process, because of the complex incentives & liabilities involved.

(Would love for an entrepreneur to come up with a way to find a market solution to this matching problem -- AirMyne might want to bid to be the technology platform on which such a CO2 capture system is built!)

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We use so much CO2 (on beverages, inert atmospheres, cooling devices, fire extinguishers, etc). Does all of it come as side-product of some industrial process? Or do we burn extra fuels to get it?

Most all of it comes as a side product. The amount of CO2 used for the applications listed pales in comparison to the amount used for urea (fertilizer) production.

What is different is that urea requires a power source that creates more CO2 than the chemical process uses. So you will certainly (as long as you are using fossil fuels) have a source available.

Those things I mentioned buy their CO2 on the market. I have no idea where it comes from.

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#117
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your thermodynamics, I'm just concerned about finding a volume big enough to store climatically meaningful amounts of CO2 in that form. 40 billion metric tons per year of CO2 in the form you describe is around 30 billion cubic meters, and you need to find that much storage volume every year just to keep things from getting worse. If you want to actually make a dent, like rolling things back to the year 2…

If you asked a pre-industrial person how in the world it would be possible to source, refine, and distribute enough crude oil to power the modern world they would quote some similarly breathless numbers. It's possible because there's a motivation to do it. Simple as that. If we had a similar level of motivation to sequester our excess carbon we could start planning to do that tomorrow and have it done within a decade…

I don't have the sources or exact numbers on hand, but I remember reading that the world's extractive & production processes create something like ~4 billion tons of oil, ~4 billion tons of iron, ~x billion tons of cement, and ~50 billion tons of sand, per year. These industries developed over many years and as you note are distributed globally. With market demand and regulatory pressure, we believe achieving CO2 removal across different modalities at the giga-ton scale is possible in our lifetimes.

That being said, we try to bring a conservative approach to our scaleup plan. The most immediate challenge is demonstrating CO2 removal at the megaton scale (1 million tons per year) to validate the process and meet short-term demand for voluntary offsets.

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#118
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few startups exploring this and also PNNL is doing great public work on this topic as well. https://youtu.be/osXq-k84LpA?t=2177

Thanks, Mark - do you (or anyone else reading this) happen to know offhand any of the startups targeting this approach?

https://www.carbfix.com/

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#119
It should be much more cost-effective to float wind turbines to pump surface water to benthic depths. Then, the whole ocean is your CO2 collection surface. You might also pump water from (lesser) depths to the surface to distribute over coral reefs to relieve both heat and pH. (Picture a line of these some miles seaward, all up and down the Great Barrier Reef.)

The wind turbine nacelle could be substantially cheaper than in the typical electrical generating turbine, instead coupling mechanically or hydraulically to the water pump.

Some people worry that this would saturate the deep ocean with CO2. A bit of calculation shows this is an idle concern: the shallow ocean is already being saturated with CO2, with immediately dire consequences, and there is overwhelmingly more deep ocean water than surface water. So long as atmospheric CO2 falls off over the coming century, there would no long-term problem.

Geoengineering that tackles the root problem, CO2, is fundamentally different from schemes that only (e.g.) try to block insolation. Other engineering is going on to tackle upstream CO2 emission, but we have a huge stock of CO2 already built up in the atmosphere that will need to be drawn down.

Re: Launch HN: AirMyne (YC W22) – Capturing CO2 from air at industrial scale

#120
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few startups exploring this and also PNNL is doing great public work on this topic as well. https://youtu.be/osXq-k84LpA?t=2177

Thanks, Mark - do you (or anyone else reading this) happen to know offhand any of the startups targeting this approach?

We don't claim to be experts on this subfield & this is may not be an exhaustive list, but Carbfix, 44.01, and the Solid Carbon coalition are some that come to mind to check out. We don't speak for those companies but just want to point out some areas to check out.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1390435 https://youtu.be/osXq-k84LpA?t=2177 <-- a webinar that addresses this topic

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