Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#101

Post by thevoiceless » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

brimble wrote: post #48

ilamont wrote: post #5

When designing medium to large sized menu navigations on the mobile web the default go-to, for some time now, has been hamburger menus. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing Tell it to the many people who have no idea what it means on a mobile device, or increasingly on desktop websites. I've said it many times before, but it's worth repeating: Most people are frustrated by modern information tools. According to a 2015…

Firefox and Chrome have proven Apple right, in forcing a top-of-screen menu bar to appear whether the application wants it to or not. This was demonstrated to me recently when my parents couldn't figure out how to print on Windows in Firefox (because there's no standard menu on it—they know "file -> print" just fine) and called me for help. After a moment of confusion on my part as I remembered that FF doesn't have a…

In case it's helpful: You can also tell them to right-click anywhere in the main toolbar area aside from the URL field, select "Customize Toolbar...", and then drag the "Print" button to wherever they want it. Alternatively: Hamburger menu > More tools > Customize toolbar...

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#102

Post by anon_123g987 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

qwertox wrote: post #93

rustyminnow wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is besides your point, but in Firefox there is an option to turn the menu bar back on (at least until they remove the option :/). If you go to the "Customize Toolbar" page, on the bottom left where it says "Toolbars v" you can check "[ ] Menu Bar". Hope that helps (a little)!

Or right-click on any free space on the top row. There's an option in the menu.

Or press the Alt button to show the Menu bar temporarily.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#103

Post by Izkata » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #67

ilamont wrote: post #5

When designing medium to large sized menu navigations on the mobile web the default go-to, for some time now, has been hamburger menus. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing Tell it to the many people who have no idea what it means on a mobile device, or increasingly on desktop websites. I've said it many times before, but it's worth repeating: Most people are frustrated by modern information tools. According to a 2015…

> I like the sausage link concept because it clearly labels options with text. 100%. I'm kinda surprised how the 3 lines hamburger menu got so prevalent in the first place, because it always user tests poorly. My guess is that when flat minimalism (my favorite shitty example of this is when Android expected everyone to know what a flat square, circle and triangle are supposed to mean) was the rage, even though user t…

The original symbol represented a menu that pops up from the bottom of the screen, as they worked in the early Android versions: https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/06c3657d29dbfaf9cc921d2690...

The three-lines version was an evolution of that, just chopping off the sides to go extra minimal, and happened very quickly.

And nowadays we have an even more minimal one, shortening the three lines to three dots.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#104

Post by brimble » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

JadedBlueEyes wrote: post #100

brimble wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox and Chrome have proven Apple right, in forcing a top-of-screen menu bar to appear whether the application wants it to or not. This was demonstrated to me recently when my parents couldn't figure out how to print on Windows in Firefox (because there's no standard menu on it—they know "file -> print" just fine) and called me for help. After a moment of confusion on my part as I remembered that FF doesn't have a…

On Windows, and most Linux apps, pressing Alt reveals a menu similar to MacOS's global menu. It's basically impossibe to discover, but it's there!

I knew that from long long ago adventures in mouseless Windows-using, for focusing it, but not for causing it to appear if there isn't one. Thanks.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#105

Post by fiddlerwoaroof » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #5

When designing medium to large sized menu navigations on the mobile web the default go-to, for some time now, has been hamburger menus. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing Tell it to the many people who have no idea what it means on a mobile device, or increasingly on desktop websites. I've said it many times before, but it's worth repeating: Most people are frustrated by modern information tools. According to a 2015…

I’m curious if words do better if you test people who don’t know the language.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#106

Post by felix318 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

brimble wrote: post #65

layer8 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s anecdotal, but my mother who "grew up" on DOS and Windows was never able to grasp the relationship between the top menu bar and the application window on MacOS. I bought her a Mac in 2010 because they are supposedly more intuitive and I didn’t want to provide PC support anymore, but it was no better than Windows for her at all (also not worse overall I guess).

I spent years thinking they [EDIT: Apple's always-top-of-screen application menus, that is] were dumb for that reason. It never occurred to me that major software vendors would be stupid and/or user-hating enough to ditch the standard top menu, when they have a whole bunch of stuff that should go in it.

I seem to recall Steve Jobs saying the reason the menu is at the top of the screen is that it's easier to hit it with the mouse, you just push it all the way up. I think it's a valid point.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#107

Post by brimble » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

rustyminnow wrote: post #88

brimble wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox and Chrome have proven Apple right, in forcing a top-of-screen menu bar to appear whether the application wants it to or not. This was demonstrated to me recently when my parents couldn't figure out how to print on Windows in Firefox (because there's no standard menu on it—they know "file -> print" just fine) and called me for help. After a moment of confusion on my part as I remembered that FF doesn't have a…

I know this is besides your point, but in Firefox there is an option to turn the menu bar back on (at least until they remove the option :/). If you go to the "Customize Toolbar" page, on the bottom left where it says "Toolbars v" you can check "[ ] Menu Bar". Hope that helps (a little)!

It'd occurred to me there was probably a setting to fix it, but I've forgotten to check the last couple times I've been over, because I'm a bad son :-( Thanks for confirming my suspicion, will try to remember to change that setting for them next time.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#108

Post by brimble » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

felix318 wrote: post #106

brimble wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent years thinking they [EDIT: Apple's always-top-of-screen application menus, that is] were dumb for that reason. It never occurred to me that major software vendors would be stupid and/or user-hating enough to ditch the standard top menu, when they have a whole bunch of stuff that should go in it.

I seem to recall Steve Jobs saying the reason the menu is at the top of the screen is that it's easier to hit it with the mouse, you just push it all the way up. I think it's a valid point.

I've noticed it's really nice if you like quarter- and half-screen layouts (or anything else that's sorta tiling-like). Four different programs on the screen, only one "file, edit, ..." menubar eating space.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#109

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #96

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like the sausage link concept because it clearly labels options with text. 100%. I'm kinda surprised how the 3 lines hamburger menu got so prevalent in the first place, because it always user tests poorly. My guess is that when flat minimalism (my favorite shitty example of this is when Android expected everyone to know what a flat square, circle and triangle are supposed to mean) was the rage, even though user t…

Designers like the hamburger because it lets them sweep anything they haven't considered under the rug. They're simple so no one attempts to cram in carousels or videos or what have you, so its the easiest way to add functionality into an app that doesn't have any other thought put into expanding the navigation. So in that sense they're highly productive.

> Designers like the hamburger because it lets them sweep anything they haven't considered under the rug.

Aren't you just describing all collapsible menus? I thought the complaint about the hamburger menu was specifically that the icon is unclear. It seems odd to disparage all collapsible menus, particularly on mobile where it's very easy to have a small number of reasonable menu options with no way to possible fit them onto the screen without a way to collapse them.

Re: Using hamburger menus? Try sausage links (2019)

#110

Post by Izkata » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 6:33 PM UTC

bentcorner wrote: post #54

css wrote: post #15

Horizontal scrolling should be avoided in almost all cases.

I'm curious about why horizontal scrolling feels so bad. Like it works just fine in mapping apps, which naturally align to a 2d canvas, but why does it feel so lousy to use with almost any other form of information? Is it because we write left-to-right, top-to-bottom? So text chunks fit better with no horizontal scrolling? (I think this is also why vertical tabs are so much better than horizontal tabs).

Next time you use a mapping app and scroll with your fingers or thumb, pay close attention to the direction: Most likely you're actually dragging it slightly diagonally then adjusting vertically afterwards.

I think a large part of it is that horizontal navigation as in OP is too thin, so if you do these natural dragging shapes your finger leaves the scrollable area. It may still work fine, but it feels wrong. Vertical scrolling on the other hand, because of what you say with our writing style, has a much larger grab area so we can easily stay within the box.

There's also parts specific to it being a menu: A vertically-aligned one usually has empty space on the right because the menu items probably aren't the same length, giving you a nice "grab area" (either your finger with touch or a place to put the mouse pointer for a scrollwheel) that doesn't hide anything. Plus scanning down a list is easier than sideways anyway because every item starts at the same place; just imagine how annoying it is to read a bulleted list on here when someone accidentally puts it all on one line because they didn't add an extra blank line between bullets.