Live data from Hacker News

Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

github.com

21–30 of 127 posts

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#21
post #11

I’m ethically torn here. On one hand, I ask myself what I would have done if I worked at IBM in the 1930s[0] On the other hand, as an LGBT person, I firmly believe that maximal freedom of speech protects vulnerable people from erasure. What this means for free software is a tough question. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_World_War_II

As an LGBT person, I fear that efforts like these are noble but empty. Assholes gonna still be assholes, Russia is gonna pirate software [0], and global Terraform users won't notice.

Could this act actually awaken an IT team to the atrocities, in a way that makes a difference?

[0] https://writing.kemitchell.com/2022/03/05/Russia-to-Legalize...

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#22

As much as I hate what Russia is doing, I’d hate even more for software to come under political purviews. If an author of a library chooses to apply political condition(however justified they may be), then the software is simply not free by definition. I’m neither Russian nor Ukrainian. I cannot turn a blind eye simply because it doesn’t apply to me. What if another library that I use apply a license that says “those…

> I’d hate even more for software to come under political purviews. Really? Making software free is just about as political as it gets. Restricting that freedom, as happens here, is equally political. I guess you just don't this special kind of politics in your software.

Right? Like the whole open source movement was a massive political thing... Open source by definition is political.

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#23
post #2

Have you found more open-source projects that follow a similar approach to spreading information about the Ukraine-Russia conflict? Would be nice to compile a list of them!

Lists tend to attract the "proscription" prefix, when in a political context.

Also, if you support the stance, you arguably don't want to make it easy for Russian/Belarusian users to avoid software, you want to maximize their inconvenience - which you do when they invest time into learning something and then find out they are technically not allowed to use it in production.

This said, it's all theatre anyway - I would bet good money that most Russian businesses already didn't care about respecting FOSS licenses, considering the infamously lax attitude about copyright enforcement in that country (and in China and Iran). So adding that sort of clause will stop absolutely no one, in practice, and I bet the authors will never even try to sue anyone in Russia (or anywhere else with some sort of jurisdiction over Russia, like the WTO) for infringing it.

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#24
I hate this presidence things like these set. I would hate code being split into left/right, and that's kinda the presidence set here

As much as I think the war is wrong, having it seep into other things which are "non-political", is incredibly annoying.

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#25
I'm in favor of a license hack for humanity.

The International Science Council [1] has a Committee for Freedom and Responsibility in Science that "promotes freedom for scientists to pursue knowledge and to freely exchange ideas, at the same time as advocating the responsibility of scientists to maintain scientifically defensible conclusions, and of scientific institutions to apply high standards." [2] They have published a list of Freedoms and Responsibilities of Scientists[3], the main principle of which is "the free and responsible practice of science is fundamental to scientific advancement and human and environmental well-being."

Reading the list in full, it seems evident that there is intellectual dissonance between the aims of scientific freedom and the aims of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights[4] (which it references). It opposes blocking access to science based on discrimination, which is laudable. However, it also doesn't explicitly oppose science done that supports discrimination, or science done by organizations that support discrimination.

This makes sense when you consider that advances in science like GPS can be used to help you drive to a birthday party, or to guide a missile towards one. Clearly you can't condemn scientific research by itself, as it has too many potential applications for both good and harm, often unknown at the time the research is done.

Similarly, discriminating against research on the basis of "ethnic origin, religion, citizenship, language, political or other opinion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, or age" also prevents the free and responsible practice of science, so the list of Freedoms and Responsibilities of course opposes this discrimination. But what if the end result of that science research is used to discriminate against those same people for the same reasons? What does a responsible, ethical scientist do then?

What we can do is oppose the use of science by people with those discriminatory goals, or goals that violate universal human rights. If you know someone is researching genetics in order to popularize Eugenics, there should be no responsibility to continue supporting that research. Similarly, if you believe that not supporting scientific research may help put pressure on a nation that is waging an unjust and unprovoked war which is killing thousands of innocent civilians [in violation of universal human rights], you should have no responsibility to continue supporting said nation's scientific research. In other words, it should be okay to discriminate if you are discriminating against violations of universal human rights.

Considering this, I would propose that one major tenant of any new Open Source license is to discriminate against organizations or nations that want to research, use, or produce science or technology, if that organization or nation is widely considered to be violating universal human rights. This goal has the effect of communicating an ethical red line you must not cross if you want to participate in a global human community, and will be a discouraging factor when nations again consider the potential ramifications of their actions.

Basically, we should use access to collaboration in science and technology as a lever to improve human rights.

edit Ethical minds think alike! Somebody already created a version of the MIT license with this exact restriction! The Hippocratic License[5]: "an Ethical Source license that specifically prohibits the use of software to violate universal standards of human rights, and embodying the Ethical Source Principles." It appears there are many[6] other such licenses.

[1] https://council.science [2] https://council.science/about-us/governance/committees/commi... [3] https://council.science/what-we-do/freedoms-and-responsibili... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... [5] https://firstdonoharm.dev/ [6] https://ethicalsource.dev/licenses/

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#26
Ugh. Lookit: it sucks to be forced to say anything at all, whether you agree with it or not. One thing I can say for certain is that my employer (and probably yours) is only into virtue signalling when it's 100% safe, everyone else is doing it and it has zero negative repercussions. I don't get to decide what my employer's stance is on licenses. I guarantee you that many people will end up moving away from these modules, not because they agree with Putin, but because they have to. Nobody wants the hassle or risk of auditing a million different licenses.

I'm an environmentalist. Should I update all my licenses to ban meat eaters, frequent flyers and drivers? Where does this shit end?

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#27

I hate this presidence things like these set. I would hate code being split into left/right, and that's kinda the presidence set here As much as I think the war is wrong, having it seep into other things which are "non-political", is incredibly annoying.

Nothing is non-political. You do not exist in a vacuum.

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#28

It sucks to have to agree with someone that you don't fundamentally agree with but I think the author of the PR is correct. This is a modification of the Apache license and while I appreciate and support their stance, it does seem to mean that the license is non compliant. I support anyone's desire to protest things (no matter which side I'm on) but you can't just make up your own rules.

How exactly do you fundamentally disagree with the author of the PR? He literally did no statements beyond saying that this is not an Apache License anymore.

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#29
Ugh. As much as I am against the invasion, I absolutely do not want to have to start examining software licenses for obscure political litmus tests. Especially pointless ones like "I believe Putin is a bad dude".

I mean, if we're going to go down this road, then let's actually effect real change and slip some clauses in there with teeth like "no click-through license agreements" or "no pop-up cookie prompts" or "no ad trackers"...

Re: Terraform-AWS-modules/Terraform-AWS-eks transitions to non-free license

#30
post #27

I hate this presidence things like these set. I would hate code being split into left/right, and that's kinda the presidence set here As much as I think the war is wrong, having it seep into other things which are "non-political", is incredibly annoying.

Nothing is non-political. You do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes. "I don't want politics in X" (software, video games, etc) mean "I support the status quo" which is by itself a political position - and often a privileged one.
Post reply on HN