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Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

erikhoel.substack.com

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Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats vaguely insulting to all the people who do work on astrophysics, I work in AI and i'm pretty certain the average astronomer is a lot smarter than the average AI researcher. Its mostly a matter of pop culture perspective, astronomy just doesn't get the kind of media coverage it used to

> i'm pretty certain the average astronomer is a lot smarter than the average AI researcher Perhaps! But is the smartest AI researcher / quant / etc. smarter than the average astronomer? The fact that so many of the smartest people in our generation go into these fields is surely bringing the average down in the hard sciences.

I'm just not sure "smartness" is the limiting factor for progress. Astronomy is an old science and we're very much at the limits of our ability and understanding. "AI" is a very new field (maybe a science idk) and theres a lot of fertile ground of exploration and growth.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#442
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a strong suspicion that aristocrat homeschooling would still beat out public education system in many ways.. For example, public education system doesn't particularly touch on social skills, etiquette, rulership/leadership, Machiavellianism, business, investing, property management, etc.

no because that's the skills of a political and economic oligarchy. If you want to see successful education systems look at the Soviet Union, India, China and also France. A boatload of testing, rigorous learning combined with high formal standards, that's to say an actual meritocracy is how you can quite literally churn out geniuses. Chess is a good example.

Soviet chess school was all about individual highly intensive mentoring. There was no mass chess education.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no because that's the skills of a political and economic oligarchy. If you want to see successful education systems look at the Soviet Union, India, China and also France. A boatload of testing, rigorous learning combined with high formal standards, that's to say an actual meritocracy is how you can quite literally churn out geniuses. Chess is a good example.

Soviet chess school was all about individual highly intensive mentoring. There was no mass chess education.

Of course there was. There was a nationwide infrastructure of chess clubs, tournaments, state financing and training that no other country had. This created the large base from which gifted players could be recruited

"But the real basis of the Soviet school was its colossal infrastructure, creating a pool of millions. As the huge Soviet training campaign bore fruit, and literally hundreds of players achieved master or grandmaster strength between the 1940s and 1960s, a vast system of rewards and punishments was built up, with endless in-fighting and denunciations. The life of a chess professional was a privileged one: stipends were much higher than average wages, and foreign travel allowed. Botvinnik and his successor Vassily Smyslov were awarded the Order of Lenin, the highest civilian Soviet honour—no British professional has received so much as a knighthood."

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/coldwarchess

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet chess school was all about individual highly intensive mentoring. There was no mass chess education.

Of course there was. There was a nationwide infrastructure of chess clubs, tournaments, state financing and training that no other country had. This created the large base from which gifted players could be recruited "But the real basis of the Soviet school was its colossal infrastructure, creating a pool of millions. As the huge Soviet training campaign bore fruit, and literally hundreds of players achieved master o…

It is the same in any other country. There are state-sponsored chess clubs everywhere.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#445

The article assumes that we aren't living in a golden age. But in terms of pure science and technology you can argue that we pretty much are living in a golden age. Just look at physics, we're now in an age of gravity wave observatories, particle accelerators, and incredibly detailed surveys of the universe and a steady stream of high quality papers that would have drowned Einstein and the like. Not to mention that s…

> Just look at physics

The last change to the standard model was the prediction of the top quark in 1977. That was almost half a century ago.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#446
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a strong suspicion that aristocrat homeschooling would still beat out public education system in many ways.. For example, public education system doesn't particularly touch on social skills, etiquette, rulership/leadership, Machiavellianism, business, investing, property management, etc.

no because that's the skills of a political and economic oligarchy. If you want to see successful education systems look at the Soviet Union, India, China and also France. A boatload of testing, rigorous learning combined with high formal standards, that's to say an actual meritocracy is how you can quite literally churn out geniuses. Chess is a good example.

Why shouldn't the masses have the mental weaponry of the ruling class? Social stability?

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But without these distractions you might be forced to go and do something else. Even if you weren’t a genius, your hard work might pay off. It’s so easy to stream what you want to watch. Before, X-Files was only on once a week and video games were expensive and you had to go to the store.

The people being distracted by streaming video are the same people who would have been distracted by TV, before that radio, before that comics, before that chasing a hoop with a stick...

I feel you under estimate the sheer accessibility of content. Before content would run out. Just because you watch TV doesn’t mean you want to watch soaps or reality TV. There were certain shows you wanted to watch then it was over.

I had my X-Files night or Buffy night. Then I’d literally go and find other things to do: read, draw, program. Now I can easily queue up all the shows I want and just watch it all.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#448

Feynman talks on names of birds being irrelevant. Also that there’s a hidden side to science not talked about and just assumed the student will pick up, that your weaknesses should be exposed. Also cargo culting. Bart Simpsons karate teacher says first we fill your head with knowledge then we break bricks with it. The article says tutors went on the grand tour. We’re full time live in always available. The Huxley quo…

Hello, please excuse me for another post but I’ve been thinking about it since and I have more things that I’d like to add, I have updated by bot programming haha let me know if this is better formatting :)

Consider, if you will, a perspective of the book Lord of the Flies, in which a group of school children who are stranded on an island descend into chaos and violence. At the end, the children are saved by a passing ship and it’s crew.

Presumably, had the ship captain been there from the start things would have turned out very differently.

Is an aristocratic education analogous to hiring a sea captain?

In that vein, is sea captain an even better fit than educator?

To put some flavour back into the story from before, viewed as a group, as the group got older, the trials and tribulations of the world were exasperated by the inexperience or lack of wisdom of the group. And so had the sea captain been there, they would have acted as guidance, direction, wisdom type roles. For roughly all of life’s things.

The tutor would go on the grand tour and would live with them. They would often have multiple for different areas of interest, …

Ok so flip it around and now we’ve got a single child instead of a group and a group of sea captains instead of 1.

A group of sea captains of different specialities would approach total cultural transfer as the group got larger. For a definition of cultural that would be analogous to tesuji or clever reactions to the things that happen.

Therefore it goes beyond “teacher” in a modern school way.

So is it also therefore that the failure to produce geniuses is the difference between school in our context and life. Their context was closer or the difference smaller.

I’m going far field into blindly assuming that book learning, what we might call academic knowledge mostly remains, some might argue watered down or perverted but they at least still exist, where as non academic things, like you’d discover on the grand tour with Jeremy Clarkson have completely vanished.

If it could be shown that a focus on that version of academics has increased over time it might even be possible to say that more academia produces less geniuses, reword that into makes people dumber, smudge it a bit and: academics makes people dumber. Which would be quite funny.

End.

Ps. There would maybe be interesting things to find by looking specifically as the types of tutors and their life curriculum. Marcus Aurelius lists maaaaaaany things iirc. “and to Epiclitus I owe…” parts.

Ps. People argue about, paraphrased by me, life skills lacking in home schooling being problem with this but maybe I’ve shown that’s not necessity correct.

Ps. Similar themes to my preceding comment but I feel like it’s better. More of a statement than the beginning of a dialogue. More focussed and fleshed out even if relying on shorthand for some of it. Otoh I’ve introduced more of my own things and dropped threads for the sake of that focus. Still, I’ll think I’ll mark it positive progress. Good bot.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there was. There was a nationwide infrastructure of chess clubs, tournaments, state financing and training that no other country had. This created the large base from which gifted players could be recruited "But the real basis of the Soviet school was its colossal infrastructure, creating a pool of millions. As the huge Soviet training campaign bore fruit, and literally hundreds of players achieved master o…

It is the same in any other country. There are state-sponsored chess clubs everywhere.

no, there are not. only in the ex-soviet states.

that's why they dominate chess forever. the talentpool is huge, and education is good. nobody else comes close, in infrastructure and level.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing is, that there is not much of basic math and physics left anymore for people to study and figure out something new. Archimedes' buoyancy, newtons laws, etc. are all something that we know and learn about in elementary and high schools, and we remember their names, because they were either first to figure it out or more realistically, first to put it in writing in a way, that we can now use in "math/ph…

Heres a counter example to both "math is finished" and "contributing to research needs heavy equipment", granted not sure how common that is. Christopher Havens, a convicted murderer serving a twenty-five-year sentence, made a world-class discovery in mathematics; from his prison cell. https://dr-younes-henni.medium.com/from-murderer-to-mathemat...

I'm not saying that it's finished as in there-is-no-more-math-to-discover, I'm more saying that all the math at elementary-to-high school level is pretty much finalized, and kids will probably never learn about Chris Havens, even though for what he did, he probably needed to be a bigger "genious" than eg. Archimedes. Students at math courses, sure... but they learn about many mathematicians there, and most of them are not known by the geneal public.
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