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Deno Is Webby

blog.jim-nielsen.com

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Re: Deno Is Webby

#81

Post by triyambakam »

crate_barre wrote: post #57
triyambakam wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not promoted as some sort of better alternative to JavaScript, because it's really not. This leaves me skeptical if you have extensive experience with Typescript. It's way more than "oh this is a number not a string." It's "you forgot this property on an object's return type that you built from a response value" or "your Redux reducer doesn't handle all of the possible action types so it will crash at run time"

"your Redux reducer doesn't handle all of the possible action types so it will crash at run time" And what are all these dr. Strange multiverse possibilities you speak of? Any semi seasoned JS dev has spidey sense for watching out for null and undefined, and generally you should know the type of what you are returning. Is there that much variability in what you are dealing with? If it’s an array of objects, that’s no…

> Is there that much variability in what you are dealing with?

Yes.

I don't mean any disrespect but again it sounds like you really haven't tried Typescript.

Spidey sense can, often and will fail.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#82

Post by triyambakam »

crate_barre wrote: post #60
triyambakam wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see what the back and forth is. Types are not inherently a fad - but there can be people who promote them with fanaticism as a cure-all or for problems they can't solve. There were people skeptical and critical of OOP when it was popular. I don't believe that OOP is inherently a fad either - it has its place. Different paradigms just get caught in the windstorm of fad interest. > [why] are we writing a…

I guess thats my main deal breaker. It’s simply another foot gun to allow people to over abstract. I have no issues with modest typing, it’s nice, it’s clear. I have issues with what entropy inevitably does.

So why are we in disagreement then? I am not advocating fanaticism, you simply seem to have implied and inferred that.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#83

Post by brundolf »

gavinray wrote: post #69
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

This has also unfortunately been my experience, even when working with developers that have several years of experience writing JS. There seems to be a big gap in knowledge when it comes to boundaries between the language specification, runtimes, and innate abilities. People consistently confused about why they can't use JSX without a build-step, not understanding that JSX isn't "real", why doesn't fetch() work in No…

> Lot of pain in trying to explain to folks that a browser and Node are two different universes that happen to speak the same general language.

That's exactly why it's so good that Deno is trying to close the gap. More consistency = fewer surprises

Re: Deno Is Webby

#84

Post by adam_arthur »

recursive wrote: post #44
adam_arthur wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue truthiness implicated by the presence of an object is more logical than having an arbitrary definition of truthiness depending on the data type. If I have a cup that's empty, there's still a cup there. It's presumptuous to assume I care about the contents.

In that case "" should be truthy. And 0 should be truthy too probably.

They should be, to have consistency in design. Note that if the language operated this way, checks on these types would be more explicit (though more verbose too).

Checking for presence of a number with a truthy check is a common source of errors, if 0 is a valid number.

I just don't agree at all that Python's interpretation of truthiness (or equality, for that matter) is inherently the "right" one. If I clone somebody are they equal because they have the same genetic makeup? No. Though a pretty contrived example that requires common understanding of equality.

At least from a programming perspective, I usually care more about instance equality rather than structural equality. Of course Python supports that too via the `is` keyword

Re: Deno Is Webby

#85

Post by IggleSniggle »

cxr wrote: post #50
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

> I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. And the right thing to resist doing either. It's to think about what "services" your program actually needs to be able to function and then to isolate those parts from the rest of your application by putting it behind a well-defined interface. In other words, the best way to fix the incompatibilit…

> In other words, the best way to fix the incompatibility problem caused by API mismatches is to never make the mistake of coding directly against the host platform's APIs to begin with. Trying to do it with compatibility shims to make one platform look like the other is a fool's errand. You end up running around trying to achieve parity with a mammoth API surface area (which might never have been especially well-designed to begin with...).

It seems like you're making a good point, but I'm confused by your comment. Do you believe we should avoid coding directly against the host platform's APIs, or do believe we should avoid compatibility shims? At some point, you need compatibility shims in order to avoid coding directly against the host platform's APIs. The most that your runtime strives to match existing runtimes, the less you need to worry about writing shims to improve compatibility.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#86

Post by michaelgrafl »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #73
dfabulich wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's even worse than that, because by being "webby" here Deno has committed itself to alert(); multiple browser vendors (including Mozilla) have advocated removing alert() from the web platform. (They want to do that because alert() "stops the world" by blocking the main thread event loop, and because they make it easy for a site to post a message that appears to come from Chrome itself, or from another websi…

>beforeunload handlers ooh no, how will sites tell me that my free offer will expire if I navigate away? But on the serious side, this is useful for many antiquated apps (e.g. government stuff) that break tons of stuff if you attempt to re-submit a form, use the back button, etc, so I see that causing a ton of problems.

Yes. I work on applications that run for a long time in the browser with many subframes. The beforeunload event helps us clean up things and manage our applications' states better.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#87

Post by crate_barre »

triyambakam wrote: post #82
crate_barre wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess thats my main deal breaker. It’s simply another foot gun to allow people to over abstract. I have no issues with modest typing, it’s nice, it’s clear. I have issues with what entropy inevitably does.

So why are we in disagreement then? I am not advocating fanaticism, you simply seem to have implied and inferred that.

Sometimes it takes a discussion, I’m not in the business of upvoting or downvoting :p

Re: Deno Is Webby

#88

Post by pvorb »

cxr wrote: post #50
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

> I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. And the right thing to resist doing either. It's to think about what "services" your program actually needs to be able to function and then to isolate those parts from the rest of your application by putting it behind a well-defined interface. In other words, the best way to fix the incompatibilit…

> never make the mistake of coding directly against the host platform's APIs to begin with

I regularly read this advice and I think it's bad in general. If you only ever work against an abstraction, you lose time and might get a worse end result than the one without the abstraction. And in the end, you might throw it away, if it doesn't prove successful. So move the cost for working with an abstraction into the future as much as possible, when you know the alternatives you have to abstract over.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#90

Post by alerighi »

dfabulich wrote: post #72
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

I think it's even worse than that, because by being "webby" here Deno has committed itself to alert(); multiple browser vendors (including Mozilla) have advocated removing alert() from the web platform. (They want to do that because alert() "stops the world" by blocking the main thread event loop, and because they make it easy for a site to post a message that appears to come from Chrome itself, or from another websi…

Removing alert is nonsense, and I don't think they will ever do (without breaking a ton of websites that use it). Why as a developer should I have to make a modal with HTML+CSS+JS to show it to just have a prompt that inform the user about something?

Ok, alert is ugly, but for a lot of situations (= industrial software) it's perfectly acceptable.

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