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Deno Is Webby

blog.jim-nielsen.com

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Re: Deno Is Webby

#71

Post by jokethrowaway »

russellbeattie wrote: post #16

I'm sorry but all those examples and Deno's documentation in general should be in JavaScript. I respect the devs right to choose which ever language they want, but Deno seems to want to be the standard bearer for the power of scripting and web standards [1]. If that's the case, then they are causing more harm than good by focusing exclusively on TypeScript, which isn't a language as much as a set of macros on top of…

The idea of TS is not bad, but they had to forbid any and other ways to escape the type system. I get tons of runtime errors on my TS projects as well because someone down the chain decided they couldn't be bothered with types.

Also, having to do type definitions for modules which don't have types is a massive pain. Overall, I appreciate the type safety, but I don't think TS delivers on that promise and I'd rather use a real typed language.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#72

Post by dfabulich »

dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

I think it's even worse than that, because by being "webby" here Deno has committed itself to alert(); multiple browser vendors (including Mozilla) have advocated removing alert() from the web platform.

(They want to do that because alert() "stops the world" by blocking the main thread event loop, and because they make it easy for a site to post a message that appears to come from Chrome itself, or from another website.)

https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/hTOXi...

> We’re on a long, slow path to deprecate and remove window.alert/confirm/prompt and beforeunload handlers due to their role in user-hostile event loop pausing, as well as phishing and other abuse mechanisms. We’ve been successfully chipping away at them in various cases, e.g. background tabs, subframes with no user interaction, and now cross-origin subframes. Each step is hard-fought progress toward the eventual goal, and we should consider carefully whether we want to regress, even in an opt-in manner.

Rich Harris has a good blog post about this. https://dev.to/richharris/stay-alert-d

Re: Deno Is Webby

#73

Post by seanp2k2 »

dfabulich wrote: post #72
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

I think it's even worse than that, because by being "webby" here Deno has committed itself to alert(); multiple browser vendors (including Mozilla) have advocated removing alert() from the web platform. (They want to do that because alert() "stops the world" by blocking the main thread event loop, and because they make it easy for a site to post a message that appears to come from Chrome itself, or from another websi…

>beforeunload handlers ooh no, how will sites tell me that my free offer will expire if I navigate away?

But on the serious side, this is useful for many antiquated apps (e.g. government stuff) that break tons of stuff if you attempt to re-submit a form, use the back button, etc, so I see that causing a ton of problems.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#74

Post by qbasic_forever »

vlovich123 wrote: post #32
dpweb wrote: post #19

Efficiency seems to be a real priority w them. I like the simplicity in Deno Deploy also. You literally get a text box and just type in your cloud function. You don't have to install cli, set up tooling, for a quick try out.

Shameless plug. Disclaimer. I work for Cloudflare. Have you tried Workers? You can do the same in a playground [1]. You can also do the same by deploying a worker through the dashboard UI (including writing the code). Nothing to link though because you need an account. The playground is limited in what it can do because it’s not deployed. You can also use Pages to point at a repo which lets you build a website and se…

Please purchase Deno the company before dismantling their only source of income through deno deploy--deno the tool is too nice to lose!

Re: Deno Is Webby

#76

Post by dahauns »

crate_barre wrote: post #43
triyambakam wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After using typed backend languages like Rust and even Go (which is painful in its own right, in my perspective) I would hate to work again on a big Ruby or Python codebase. They feel just as disgusting, to use your metaphor, as using plain Javascript instead of Typescript. > why wasn’t there such a massive push for types in those languages Are you just choosing to ignore all of the history of type checking Python an…

Look, this is going to back and forth. Take a time machine to pre Web 2.0 and explain to everyone why OOP programming sucks. I’d dare you to take it off your resume. But we’re here now right? It’s not hard for me to imagine the reversal of this trend inevitably where everyone goes ‘the fuck are we writing all these verbose types for this dumb web app for?’.

You're a bit late to the party...Web 2.0 was this phase.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#77

Post by seanp2k2 »

gavinray wrote: post #69
dexwiz wrote: post #4

This is nice, until its not. I have spent a fair amount of time over the last several years trying to make node act like the browser, or vice versa. It's doubly confusing to juniors who don't understand the difference between a language and a runtime. alert() looks like a standard function and should be specified by the ECMAScript Language Specification. But its actually specified by the HTML standard, because its Wi…

This has also unfortunately been my experience, even when working with developers that have several years of experience writing JS. There seems to be a big gap in knowledge when it comes to boundaries between the language specification, runtimes, and innate abilities. People consistently confused about why they can't use JSX without a build-step, not understanding that JSX isn't "real", why doesn't fetch() work in No…

speaking of next.js, it's always fun to watch web tech come full circle back to "maybe we should render this stuff before we send the bits, since servers and CDNs are real real good at sending bits real real fast, instead of making everyone render the same static stuff a billion times per day client-side". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_Type was generating static blogs back in 2001, and that's still a great idea 20 years later. I'm glad that "modern" JS thinking has finally caught up :)

Re: Deno Is Webby

#78

Post by moron4hire »

afiori wrote: post #28
danbolt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that the global namespace should be `window`, because that's what it is in JavaScript's natural habitat. Oh wow, I had no idea. That rules!

ecmascript now has both `globalThis` and `self` that can act as global namespace (they all point to the same object except in workers as window and globalThis cannot be used in workers)

No, `globalThis` is available in workers. It points to `self`. On the page, `globalThis` points to `window`. `globalThis` thus becomes the one, safe, global reference you can make for code that runs in both pages and workers.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#79

Post by jokethrowaway »

triyambakam wrote: post #52
crate_barre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, this is going to back and forth. Take a time machine to pre Web 2.0 and explain to everyone why OOP programming sucks. I’d dare you to take it off your resume. But we’re here now right? It’s not hard for me to imagine the reversal of this trend inevitably where everyone goes ‘the fuck are we writing all these verbose types for this dumb web app for?’.

I really don't see what the back and forth is. Types are not inherently a fad - but there can be people who promote them with fanaticism as a cure-all or for problems they can't solve. There were people skeptical and critical of OOP when it was popular. I don't believe that OOP is inherently a fad either - it has its place. Different paradigms just get caught in the windstorm of fad interest. > [why] are we writing a…

The problem with OOP is that there is not a single definition.

There are a bunch of people claiming this and that are OOP. To me OOP is encapsulating a mutable state inside a dynamic namespace (an object, an instance of class), with functions that can access the state and the ability to inherit / extend namespaces.

And I absolutely don't need it, I don't agree with the view some things are better done with OOP. Even gaming or GUI programming, domains typically considered to be the best for OOP, turned to ECS (which is very functional) and Elm style APIs.

Going back at OOP: I consider mutable state to be a necessary evil to be limited as much as possible; inheritance makes it hard to track what code is being run.

The best practice for writing OOP revolves around limiting mutable state and inheritance, so why even bother with OOP in the first place?

I can have encapsulation with namespaces / modules in functional languages as well. I don't need much else and I can live happily without `this` and using composition instead of inheritance.

OOP was the first marketing wave focused at developers and it's gone.

Re: Deno Is Webby

#80

Post by hyperhopper »

SonOfLilit wrote: post #29
__ryan__ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of questions: “Make [] false-y” Why? “Add macros” Why? How? “Bring back `with`” Why?

Not GP, but I really like [] being false in ruby and python because I often want to ask "is this variable that should hold a collection holding a collection of things, or is it empty/false?"

Luckily, most languages have a `.empty()` method! You should use that instead for readability purposes.
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