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5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

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Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven’t been a superpower for nearly as long as the US has been, and it didn’t overlap with the zenith of “overthrowing governments as the means to foreign policy”. Moreover, it’s easy to criticize Cold War eta interventions when the stakes were very high, but there’s much less justification for “peacetime repression”. Further still, “overthrowing governments” isn’t the only way to measure meddling and repressio…

> Moreover, it’s easy to criticize Cold War eta interventions when the stakes were very high Were they, though? Which nation was primarily responsible for escalation of tensions during that time? And for whom were the stakes high enough to justify overthrowing democratic governments in favor of brutal dictators?

I'm not defending any particular action, I'm cautioning against context-less comparisons. But to answer your other questions, the stakes were very high for the whole world (global thermonuclear war, communism, etc) and the USSR was primarily responsible for escalating though no doubt the west was not uniformly virtuous.

If your goal is to compare the West or the US in particular with its dictatorial rivals, it's probably not very enlightening to account only for Western errors. You need to account for the errors and contributions of both sides. Unfortunately, this seems like hidden knowledge because virtually this debate is nearly always framed in the "only enumerate Western errors" fashion.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#92
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they've cleaned up their act by now! Surely they aren't during stuff like that, and "thwarting" "terrorist plots" where the "conspirators" are FBI assets themselves

what are you referring to? the Boston bombing?

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/03/the-fbi-pressured-a-lone...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/magazine/fbi-internationa...

impossible to know how many such stories there are

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is true, but that was more than fifty years ago..

The problem with learning about things with a ~multi-decade delay (via FOIA etc) is that everything sounds so long ago, in a different time. But there's not a ton of reason to believe that things have changed so fundamentally.

I can think of one powerfully compelling reason: wishful thinking.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven’t been a superpower for nearly as long as the US has been, and it didn’t overlap with the zenith of “overthrowing governments as the means to foreign policy”. Moreover, it’s easy to criticize Cold War eta interventions when the stakes were very high, but there’s much less justification for “peacetime repression”. Further still, “overthrowing governments” isn’t the only way to measure meddling and repressio…

> Moreover, it’s easy to criticize Cold War eta interventions when the stakes were very high Were they, though? Which nation was primarily responsible for escalation of tensions during that time? And for whom were the stakes high enough to justify overthrowing democratic governments in favor of brutal dictators?

It’s pretty easy to look at North Korea, Cambodia, or Eastern Europe during the Cold War and say “hmm, it’s worth going to extreme lengths to prevent this from happening elsewhere”. That may have been misguided in many instances, but the basic motivation is sound. Characterizing the situation as “overthrowing democratic governments in favor of brutal dictators” is a vast oversimplification if not outright wrong at least in many cases.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moreover, it’s easy to criticize Cold War eta interventions when the stakes were very high Were they, though? Which nation was primarily responsible for escalation of tensions during that time? And for whom were the stakes high enough to justify overthrowing democratic governments in favor of brutal dictators?

It’s pretty easy to look at North Korea, Cambodia, or Eastern Europe during the Cold War and say “hmm, it’s worth going to extreme lengths to prevent this from happening elsewhere”. That may have been misguided in many instances, but the basic motivation is sound. Characterizing the situation as “overthrowing democratic governments in favor of brutal dictators” is a vast oversimplification if not outright wrong at le…

> It’s pretty easy to look at North Korea, Cambodia, or Eastern Europe during the Cold War and say “hmm, it’s worth going to extreme lengths to prevent this from happening elsewhere”. That may have been misguided in many instances, but the basic motivation is sound.

Careful, this is literally Moscow's reason for its invasion of Ukraine -- to prevent the rise of a hostile fascist entity in its frontyard.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#97
post #44
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of Gang stalking[0]. It always seems to happen to people who present themselves as generally not very mentally healthy, but sometimes you have to wonder. If you were the very unlucky target of some deniable, organized harassment effort, it would certainly take its toll on your mental health. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_stalking

Worth noting that if you actually ARE being tailed by an organized and well-resourced group, they will frequently use a team of people to do so, time and circumstances permitting.

This is probably why it's very hard to help someone who is under legitimately delusional feelings of gang stalking, because those who legitimately are and those who are delusional are likely to look the same to outsiders, and will always be considered delusional.

If a person is suffering from strong enough paranoia to classify themselves as a "targeted individual", then they've probably walked through the scenario that they might be crazy but also realized that if their paranoia is accurate, then they would also have appeared to be crazy.

It's a vicious cycle.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#98
post #21

Sometimes I think this sounds conspiratorial, and surely isn't happening. Who has the time or money to pay 5 people to just go around harassing and stalking people for political gain only? Then I remember the story of the lady in East Germany who, after it fell, managed to get the Stasi records that finally proved that yes, they had been stalking her, harassing her, and spying on her. They would do things like wait u…

There are a lot of cases of Chinese, Russian, Iranian, Saudi, etc. dissidents or critics being targeted overseas. I'm not sure why it's a surprise to anyone or why people think it doesn't happen.

puts on tinfoil hat

Because the belief that this kind of gang stalking never happens and people who think that they are getting harassed like this are always crazy is a psyop designed to make sure the public is more susceptible to the rare, but highly effective practice.

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#99
post #75

No other country has managed to accomplish what CCP has in its coordinated campaign across the globe. Covert: Inflitrate US Congress for potential blackmail - https://www.axios.com/china-spy-california-politicians-9d2df... Infitration of US Higher Ed & Supression - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/16/how-china... Siphon off entire US Government personnel information, Probably to match it against Grindr…

A certain Middle Eastern nation has infiltrated the US government far more successfully than China could ever dream of, and they barely hide it.

Could you clarify which nation you’re thinking of, here?

Re: 5 Charged with Stalking, Harassing, Spying on US Residents for PRC Secret Police

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FBI COINTELPRO [0] and CIA Operation CHAOS [1] did way more than just sending some harassing mail to MLK [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS [2] https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/7...

It's important to remember that this was in the past. The FBI, as well as every other three-letter-agency, are the good guys now, and they are totally ashamed of doing those things. They're definitely not doing anything like that anymore!

Like the old saying goes, a leopard can change its spots.
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