Live data from Hacker News

Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

erikhoel.substack.com

241–250 of 505 posts

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there isn't enough distinction in the term "genius". How do you even compare their contributions? It is easy when you have someone like Euclid or Newton, who's work is taught in pre-college grades. Who is the last person to have an impact on pre-collegiate math syllabi? It's been centuries. Then you look at someone like Einstein who was discussed in every major magazine and newspaper at the time his general t…

> Who is the last person to have an impact on pre-collegiate math syllabi? Shrodinger, maybe? He is a really large part of the reason people study matrices before college, and then go and complain because nobody can show them a use for the thing.

Showing a use case for matrices is extremely easy : 3D graphics. At least 50% of school students will have a good understanding of that field.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#242

I think this is more of a version of the "why have we stopped making good music/movies, almost everything today is garbage?" issue. With the benefit of hindsight, we only remember the greats (and the very worst villains) from past eras. While if we look around today, we see all the people who will never make it into the history books, just like we see all the songs and movies that will never become "classics." Edit:…

> I think this is more of a version of the "why have we stopped making good music/movies, almost everything today is garbage?" issue. Tangentially, though, I think there's something to the complaints about music. Why does pop music have any noticeably autotuned singers at all, when anyone who regularly goes to karaoke bars knows that there are lots of good singers everywhere? In other words, why is being a good enoug…

Most superstar pop singers have fantastic singing voices and great pitch control. Autotune shows up because of some mix of 1) the modern pop aesthetic demands superhuman tuning, 2) some degree of autotune artifacts are expected as part of the modern sound, and 3) it can intentionally be used as an effect (T-Pain).

To give some more detail about both 1 and 2 -

Pitch control is more than just hitting the note; its about how well you can onset at the right pitch, how well you can hold the pitch once hit, how well you can jump each pitch interval and land on the right pitch, how well you can pitch through different articulations, different vocal ranges, etc. The modern pop sound has accepted that superhuman levels of pitch control that lock the vocal into tune with the perfectly tuned synthesizers/samplers are more important than a natural sound.

Also, since we've been using autotune for so long, it has almost become natural. We expect to hear it to some degree on every track, especially in more difficult vocal areas. If it wasn't present, one might feel the song sounds "indie" or worse, dated.

Lastly, one thing that fascinates me about the autotune complaints are that it's just one stage of a very long vocal processing chain. To my ears, the tweaks provided by dynamics processors are much more dramatic than autotune when applied to a reasonably proficient singer. Autotune is just one step of a processing chain that can easily run through 10+ processors to end up at the right sound.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a well studied phenomenon in literature. Some books we regard as classics today sold relatively little upon release, while authors in the past were incredibly popular then, upon the author's death usually, the name was utterly forgotten from aesthetic appraisals. Ideas of a "canon" are much less stable than people think.

Art, as well; Van Gogh died a failure.

Art's a little weird, because the price of a lot of million-dollar art pieces is driven in large part by the need for an appreciating-on-paper vehicle for tax evasion. (That you can lend out to art galleries.)

And the last thing these schemes need is a living artist who can - upon his work reaching stardom - simply make more of it.

In this respect, dead poets are much safer to bet the farm on.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#244
Maxwell attended the Edinburgh Academy which wasn't even the best school in town . Then he went on to attend the local university. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly unusual about his educational background. He did come from a wealthy family though.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#245

The article is mainly about educating children. One issue I found was that there might be some personal quality required to get tutored effectively. Can everyone be tutored and benefit from it? For the geniuses listed, there must be an army of not so brilliant minds that we didn't hear about. How much worse off are they in a normal factory school? Also, if you go to Oxbridge, you get a tutor several times a week. I a…

There's some research about this. [1] It seems tutoring is very effective as a teaching method, but of course, not very scalable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem

Exactly. Tutoring is a huge advantage for your children if you can afford it. One area where you still see it is in music lessons. Any even moderately serious student of the piano or similar instruments learns in a tutoring type arrangement.

Those individuals who have the potential for groundbreaking genius, say the 4+ sigma crowd, simply cannot practicably be adequately served by group instruction if they are to reach their potential. It's up to us as a society to decide whether we want to treat our intellectual superiors as precious gifts that should be cherished or as affronts to our notions of equality and fairness. I fear we're leaning ever more toward the latter. It's too bad, because humanity is facing a number of problems that will probably require geniuses to solve.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#246

The quality of this thread is really disappointing. Conservatively, about 80% of the replies, criticisms, suggestions, re-framings, here are addressed in the article by the author. About 20% of the replies here are responding to the title alone (and therefore focused on Einstein/progress in hard science). The piece is about the kind of education the children of the aristocracy received and how it has disappeared enti…

Has it disappeared entirely? "The children of the aristocracy" were very few. Do a few people receive that kind of education today? Elon Musk's children? Bill Gates' children? Some Saudi prince's children?

Note also that some of the people were "tutored" by their parents; homeschooling today could fill the same role.

And,

> So, where are all the Einsteins?

> The answer must lie in education somewhere.

That's a really glib dismissal of all other possible reasons, with almost no factual reason (or even argument) behind it.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#247

I completely disagree with the premise, that geniuses are vanishing - I think we have more than ever, it just takes a lot more to make notable progress these days. However, the article still ended up being a decent read, exploring how a lot of geniuses had tutors. I think our education system is messed up in a lot of ways, and we'd have a better society if kids got more adult attention. Saying this as a parent of a m…

I think there's something in this. The "where's today's Beethoven" chart would be completely explained either by an actual decline, or by it becoming harder to be rated a genius against contemporaries over time. And that itself is mostly a numbers game too: the human population now is 7 times larger than it was at Beethoven's death. Vienna's population (relevant since we're talking about Beethoven) was about 200,000…

Re: "it's more than likely that all the individuals currently of Beethoven's absolute talent level are thought of as merely "extremely good", not "genius", precisely because they don't break away from the pack and individually dominate the field". But doesn't that imply we should see individuals heads and shoulders above Beethoven? If we see a lot of Beethoven's at the merely "extremely good" level where is(are) the one(s) at the next "genius" level???

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#248
post #27

We don't have Einsteins because the brightest people don't work on astrophysics because there's no money in it. Instead, they're figuring out how to use AI to sell more dick pills and artfully distressed furniture to people devoid of erections and taste on the goddamn Internet, for more money in a year than Einstein saw in a decade.

> We don't have Einsteins because the brightest people don't work on astrophysics because there's no money in it. Einstein worked in a patent office from 1902-1909. In 1905 he published four papers on the photoelectric effect (laying the way for quantum physics), Brownian motion (proving the existence of atoms), special relativity, and the equivalence of mass and energy (leading to atomic energy). From the beginning…

Einstein was a bad example. What is true though is that intelligent people choose not to risk their health and safety by living in poverty.

There is this narrative parroted by the ultra-rich and corporations that life is much more livable for the poor in the modern era (because we have microwaves), but that is simply not true.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#249
post #204
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One really major innovation is that we have developed the capacity to do experiments at a massive volume physically, and are just - with the big data revolution - developing the capability to understand these data volumes and translate them into findings. Whereas science used to be done in a relatively small number of labs, with little communication between countries - there are now thousands of universities and comm…

> Whereas science used to be done in a relatively small number of labs, with little communication between countries - there are now thousands of universities and commercial labs in every developed country doing research. And that research uses machines that measure thousands of variables at high speed. And the median value of that reasearch is zero. There is literally too much research being done. Because of perverse…

You're mistaken, I think, because one of your assumptions is not necessarily true - that wrong/useless results are a bad thing and slowing us down.

First, the notion that "wrong" research is bad. We have to remember that literally the best results science have to offer are in fact wrong today, and have been more wrong in the past. What science produces are models of reality, and while they may be highly accurate at predicting reality they are not in fact reality. They are wrong in some way. So we can't just throw out all of the wrong results because then we would have to throw out all of the results. Instead of going down this path, we can instead be content that some research is wrong, because the scientific process is one of continually refining those results. Also, we note that despite everything literally being wrong, society, technology, and engineering still make progress. Being wrong does not mean being useless.

Second, the notion that "useless" research is bad. The thing about usefulness is that it's hard to quantify, and it's also not a static property. Sometimes research that is useful in one era is completely useless in another. For example, deep learning wasn't very useful until the era of big data and limitless compute. Before then, people could make guesses as to the usefulness of this research, but no one really knew for sure how useful it would be when it was brand new. Should that research not have been done until it was more useful? I don't think anyone would argue that. How then, are we able to determine ahead of time how useful a research project will be? If we knew how to do that, then it wouldn't be research, would it?

So really, if you aim to cut off the bottom half of research with the intent that it would increase the sum total knowledge of humanity, you have to show how you:

1) identify the bottom half of research before it's conducted

2) quantify the "useful" research potential of a project, and how do you intended to squelch useless research while allowing useful research to persist unimpeded

3) intend to separate "wrong" research from "right" research

4) fund useful research while passing over useless research

I think the answer to those questions would basically involve re-inventing the scientific process.

I mean, just think of it this way: research that may turn out to be useless at least has the positive value of showing how something isn't to be done. This has the positive result of allowing someone else to try a different method, which may be equally useless, or may be the key to unlocking new knowledge. I think it's impossible to get the latter without the former.

Re: Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored

#250

I think the author has got it mainly correct. There exists a perfect analog to this 'genius problem' in plain sight: Architecture. Back in the day, especially the art-deco era, buildings were adorned with beautiful facades and friezes and carvings. They had style and substance and actual design. Today, all you get are construction companies shitting out glass-paned bricks with shoddy materials, poor usability conside…

Back in 2010, I was invited to a party in a building down at the south end of Manhattan. We were 4 blocks from Wall Street. It was a new building, my friend had just moved in. The building was for the "$400,000 a year working stiffs" of Wall Street, but that line is from 1987 (the movie Wall Street) and nowadays they all make a few million a year. I was surprised by the relatively poor quality of the building. All th…

It's just the illusion that the West is rich. Like, have you ever asked a Scandinavian about their country? People living like in identical dwellings, having identical tastes, going to the same bad food places and persisting on OMGZ we have the best countries!111

I once heard someone say the food he ate growing up in the SU was way fresher than anything that could be bought in a store or restaurant.

The US is all about the pretension of "I can't believe its not Butter."

"I can't believe it's not a luxury Apartment building."

Post reply on HN