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What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#121

Post by xscott »

bena wrote: post #118
xscott wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A Turing-complete language is just that, Turing-complete. It sounds like you're dismissing Turing complete languages as basically the same. I think that's kind of like saying all hardware and networking is just made out of electric circuits. It's true, but it's not illuminating. > Sorting used to be hard. It used to be novel. It used to be something you could study Quicksort was created in 1959 [0], Heapsort in 196…

It does support my argument. Unless you want to quibble about exact times and how 1959 isn't "the 70s". Before 1959, Quicksort was novel. After that, it was something you were expected to know. Knowledge builds on knowledge. I don't have to invent heapsort. I can just study the implementation. It's now part of the common knowledge we're supposed to have. And if you think programming is just as sophisticated today as…

> Knowledge builds on knowledge.

I always thought so too, but this discussion makes me think otherwise.

Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#122

Post by bpiche »

ghaff wrote: post #12
InitialLastName wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, this is an open question, but one explanation has a few factors: a) In the absence of many external pressures, hunting and gathering is actually a reasonably low-effort and flexible lifestyle. From a moment-to-moment perspective, agriculture (and our "technological" world) mostly doesn't seem like an improvement. Long-term, the quality-of-life improvements come about in resiliency and stability, b…

But even the Roman Empire--looked at on a long enough timescale--basically didn't move the needle on societal advancement relative to what happened once the industrial revolution got going. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.co...

The author and futurist Bruce Sterling (should need no introduction) has spoken about steam engine time before if I’m not mistaken but I might have mixed it up with someone else. Basically the steam engine could have been developed further in the past but the right set of social factors did not align with engineering and metallurgical factors

Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#123

Post by bpiche »

ghaff wrote: post #101
deutschew wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The roman empire had steam powered contraceptions or prototypes too but lacked the machinery to produce them in large scale but more importantly their demographic were not very open to automation since they had human robots they could control aka slaves. Why build an elaborate steam powered textile factory when it costs nothing to use slaves to do it for you? Why do you need UFC on 4k television when you can watch gl…

The Roman Empire is presumably the point (in the Western core) where an alternate history could have plausibly accelerated the industrial revolution if maybe not by a millennium at least some number of centuries. If you dig into the social development data the fall of Rome is where social development actually significantly regressed in the West and the East was even arguably ahead for a stretch.

Wasn’t it Philip K Dick, in VALIS, who wrote “the Empire never ended”? Not in the sense that it didn’t end; it did in the 14th c. to the Ottoman Empire, but that the past is laminated onto the present.

Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#124

Post by dotancohen »

akvadrako wrote: post #90
dotancohen wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To those who think that this is a joke: Beer leading to civilization is actually an idea that is accepted in the field. Beer might not be the only factor, but it is almost certainly a contributing factor. Consider that beer is safer to drink than the sources of water that were available, and the pleasing intoxicating effects. Possibly also the alcohol addiction to an extent. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/opinion…

Not just that, but beer can make you braver and more willing to challenge the status quo.

Ah yes, the Beer Hall Putsch!

Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#125

Post by inglor_cz »

deutschew wrote: post #50
ghaff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even the Roman Empire--looked at on a long enough timescale--basically didn't move the needle on societal advancement relative to what happened once the industrial revolution got going. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.co...

The roman empire had steam powered contraceptions or prototypes too but lacked the machinery to produce them in large scale but more importantly their demographic were not very open to automation since they had human robots they could control aka slaves. Why build an elaborate steam powered textile factory when it costs nothing to use slaves to do it for you? Why do you need UFC on 4k television when you can watch gl…

They also had insufficiently developed metallurgy for anything steam-related.

Steam vessels need to withstand pressures that contemporary metal was incapable of tolerating.

Metallurgy is a huge player in technical progress. See current SpaceX efforts to prevent their Raptor 2 engines from ever so slightly melting when fired in overdrive.

Re: What were humans doing in the Yukon 24,000 years ago?

#126

Post by bena »

xscott wrote: post #121
bena wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does support my argument. Unless you want to quibble about exact times and how 1959 isn't "the 70s". Before 1959, Quicksort was novel. After that, it was something you were expected to know. Knowledge builds on knowledge. I don't have to invent heapsort. I can just study the implementation. It's now part of the common knowledge we're supposed to have. And if you think programming is just as sophisticated today as…

> Knowledge builds on knowledge. I always thought so too, but this discussion makes me think otherwise.

I bet you get that feeling a lot. Must be a rough life.
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