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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#101

Post by dls2016 »

defen wrote: post #27
adamsmith143 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible for you to construct a scenario where torture is morally acceptable? E.g. you have a virtual certainty that a dirty bomb is going to be detonated in NYC and will kill 1M+ and potentially irradiate the city for decades. Is torturing one person who you know with certainty knows the location of the bomb defensible? Basically, how many lives would you be willing to sacrifice to prevent the suffering of a s…

Do we have any evidence that torture actually works ? That the person being tortured will tell accurate information? Basically do we have any examples of this sort of situation, where there was an imminent threat to life and people were saved due to torture?

> Do we have any evidence that torture actually works?

Most evidence points the other direction.

> Finally, an exhaustive 2014 report by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence analyzed millions of internal CIA documents related to the torture of terrorism suspects, concluding that “the CIA's use of its enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees.” It adds that “multiple CIA detainees fabricated information, resulting in faulty intelligence.” https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known...

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/publ...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#102

Post by krapp »

14 wrote: post #17
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Not only that but it is considered a war crime to torture from my understanding. So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. We need to lead on a moral high ground.

>So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this.

One can be a hypocrite and also be correct. Either a nation is committing war crimes, or they aren't. Either it's morally justified to oppose war crimes, or it isn't. You can't argue that the US should be punished for war crimes without also arguing that the US and NATO are correct to oppose Russian war crimes.

Otherwise, the argument is that Russia should be allowed to commit war crimes because the US gets to, which is at best an extremely childish way of viewing the world, wholly separated from morality.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#103

Post by echelon »

sdoering wrote: post #22
adamsmith143 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible for you to construct a scenario where torture is morally acceptable? E.g. you have a virtual certainty that a dirty bomb is going to be detonated in NYC and will kill 1M+ and potentially irradiate the city for decades. Is torturing one person who you know with certainty knows the location of the bomb defensible? Basically, how many lives would you be willing to sacrifice to prevent the suffering of a s…

In the end, what you are asking comes down to some form of the "Trolley Problem" [0]. The critique towards the Trolley Problem can be directed towards your (very) hypothetical scenario as well: > In a 2014 paper published in the Social and Personality Psychology Compass, researchers criticized the use of the trolley problem, arguing, among other things, that the scenario it presents is too extreme and unconnected to…

Another one to ponder,

Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" [1, 2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...

[2] Full short story: https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/rea...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#104

Post by catchclose8919 »

pessimizer wrote: post #77
catchclose8919 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you a bad enough dude to rationalize that? Probably many are, but for a person crazy enough to do such a horrible act such threats would also likely not work (either "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"). As a society I think we can only try to avoid creating enough people who have "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"... They're basically "cancer cells", once at least one…

> Probably many are, but for a person crazy enough to do such a horrible act such threats would also likely not work (either "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"). War isn't crazy, and participating in attacks on [your country] doesn't mean that one is irrational or doesn't care about anyone in the world. Just because you are willing to give your own life for a cause doesn't mean you have nothing…

> War isn't crazy

Planting a dirt bomb in a civilian inhabited city is way beyond war... 99.9% soldiers fighting in a war would not participate in anything similar to this... Even when a city is bombed to the ground, that generally happens well after beginning of a conflict and most people have been at least given one chance to run away or surrender... Most people who plan their lives well enough have a decent chance to at least evacuate vulnerable people from war zones (at high cost, sacrifice, but still).

The propaganda people currently trying to blur such lines are CRIMINAL imo...

> like the Khmer Rouge

Not sure how well this (or anything else) worked for them... afaik they ended up massacring a large part of their civilians population because they were paranoid and couldn't figure out who to trust, or had crazy ideas about who the ideal future citizens should be...

Yeah, sure, torturing enemy fighters to give away military secrets probably works just fine, just don't do it on a large enough scale or you'll just motivate the enemy to faith-to-death instead of risking to get captured... and this would likely nullify any advantage you'd gain.

There's a big gap between "regular war" and "total unrestricted violence and terror", that's why we talk of "war crimes"...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#105

Post by mywacaday »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything when it continues to not be a member of the ICC and is even occasionally actively hostile towards individual judges and member countries by threatening sanctions.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#106

Post by bashinator »

krisoft wrote: post #73
14 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but it is considered a war crime to torture from my understanding. So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. We need to lead on a moral high ground.

> So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. I don't understand what you are saying here. More than one group can commit war crimes.

I believe what the grandparent post actually meant was, "This undermines our moral posture in accusing Russia of war crimes." Which is true.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#107

Post by mbg721 »

pessimizer wrote: post #77
catchclose8919 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you a bad enough dude to rationalize that? Probably many are, but for a person crazy enough to do such a horrible act such threats would also likely not work (either "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"). As a society I think we can only try to avoid creating enough people who have "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"... They're basically "cancer cells", once at least one…

> Probably many are, but for a person crazy enough to do such a horrible act such threats would also likely not work (either "nothing to lose" or "don't care about anything anymore"). War isn't crazy, and participating in attacks on [your country] doesn't mean that one is irrational or doesn't care about anyone in the world. Just because you are willing to give your own life for a cause doesn't mean you have nothing…

World-war, total-war of the type that's making people anxious, that's pretty damn crazy. Sure, some wars don't operate that way, but those are irrelevant.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#108

Post by dls2016 »

jonnybgood wrote: post #15
bogantech wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No president is going to do anything about it because the intelligence agencies almost certainly have blackmail material on them all

How does that work exactly? CIA: If you don’t let us torture people just because then we’ll make a scandal of you. President: Oh no. I guess I have to let you. I have no power whatsoever. Can’t get the FBI on it, because they’re blackmailing me too! The US government and intelligence agencies is not like what you see in the movies.

> How does that work exactly?

Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think it was coincidence that he had power of attorney over Les Wexner, who was involved with the notorious Southern Air Transport? There are many other intelligence connections, for instance Maxwell and her father.

The CIA is really the worst institution in the US government.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#109

Post by upofadown »

>The interrogators were convinced that Baluchi knew more than he was saying because he was a nephew of the self-proclaimed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, Khaled Sheikh Mohammed.

Repressive regimes often make a point of persecuting family members. It sends the message that resistance will cause terrible things to happen to those you love, not just you. The torture works toward that end in this case.

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