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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#81

Post by throwaway894345 »

14 wrote: post #17
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Not only that but it is considered a war crime to torture from my understanding. So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. We need to lead on a moral high ground.

I absolutely agree about leading from the moral high ground. It's been frustrating talking with ordinary Russians who are reluctant to condemn (even anonymously) that their invasion of Ukraine (including the targeted murder of civilians) is an atrocity because the US invaded Iraq under false pretenses and without UN approval. Of course, it's a significant error of degree to conflate these anomalies in US behavior with the standard behavior of Russia or China or whomever, but by behaving above-board we make it harder for bad faith people to conflate American behavior with that of various dictatorships.

EDIT: On the subject of dictatorships and the UN, there's a brief but insightful essay I recently came across recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30687498

> So many member states are themselves dictatorships that engage in horrible human rights violations—and they stick together. The latter point is key: the worst countries are far more united in protecting human rights abuses than the democracies are in protecting human rights.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#82

Post by pstuart »

harryf wrote: post #75
BbzzbB wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the US isn't a party to the ICC so it can't be sued by it over war crimes in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute

It doesn’t need a treaty for something to be clearly wrong… and like wrong at any level. I mean the poster at the top of this thread immediately tries to make some justification… > This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. No! It’s just wrong! We should never do this to other human beings. Period. But you want a GOOD…

The show "24" was an advertisement for torture. I got sucked in at first because it was a bit of a twist and exciting, but soon stopped out of disgust when I realized what was going on.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#83

Post by willis936 »

krisoft wrote: post #73
14 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but it is considered a war crime to torture from my understanding. So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. We need to lead on a moral high ground.

> So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. I don't understand what you are saying here. More than one group can commit war crimes.

This is referred to as "Whataboutism". Russia has a colorful history of using it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#History

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#84

Post by bell-cot »

gmadsen wrote: post #44
adamsmith143 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible for you to construct a scenario where torture is morally acceptable? E.g. you have a virtual certainty that a dirty bomb is going to be detonated in NYC and will kill 1M+ and potentially irradiate the city for decades. Is torturing one person who you know with certainty knows the location of the bomb defensible? Basically, how many lives would you be willing to sacrifice to prevent the suffering of a s…

for one, the marine general Mattis said he was against torture. Not because of moral issues, but simply because it was ineffective. People will say whatever they think you want to hear to stop being tortured, which then leads to a lot of really bad and false intel

THIS. "Does Not Actually Work In The Real World" (no matter what Hollywood, or your own imagination or seething emotions might say on the subject) is a 100%-All-Cases-Covered "NO" for "...ends justify the means..." bullshit.

Exact same reasoning as "thou shalt not brutally beat epileptic children, to try to cure them by driving the demons out".

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#85

Post by pmoriarty »

dhosek wrote: post #66
NoGravitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama ran for office on a pledge to close Guantanamo, and he could have done so by executive order. He didn't, and that should tell you all you need to know about the nature of the American presidency.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

Punished him severely how?

Trump did way more extreme things with impunity.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#86

Post by thissuchness »

dhosek wrote: post #66
NoGravitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama ran for office on a pledge to close Guantanamo, and he could have done so by executive order. He didn't, and that should tell you all you need to know about the nature of the American presidency.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

Punished him how? Were the schmepublicans not already turning up the drama dial to 11? What further recourse did they have to make things worse for him?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#87

Post by chiefalchemist »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Worse? Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. The cultural need - at the elites' level - to "break" the opposition is disturbing. And yes,ultimately this manifests in the broader culture. If for no other reason, the elites have become normalized to The Culture of Violence and see no reason to change course. Their power remains safe and intact.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#88

Post by bell-cot »

dhosek wrote: post #66
NoGravitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama ran for office on a pledge to close Guantanamo, and he could have done so by executive order. He didn't, and that should tell you all you need to know about the nature of the American presidency.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

Early in a new President's first term, "I promised over and over to do X while I was running for President, and the American People very clearly voted for that" is d*mn good political cover for doing X.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#89

Post by nradov »

dhosek wrote: post #66
NoGravitas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama ran for office on a pledge to close Guantanamo, and he could have done so by executive order. He didn't, and that should tell you all you need to know about the nature of the American presidency.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

When President Obama took office, Democrats controlled both the House and Senate. You can't hang this one on Republicans. Both parties were equal participants in keeping the Guantanamo detention facility open.

Congress sets the annual federal budget. The Democrat controlled Congress literally allocated dollars to run that facility. If Democrats actually wanted to close it they could have eliminated funding, but they specifically chose to keep it multiple times.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#90

Post by mbg721 »

nradov wrote: post #89
dhosek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a HUGE faction in congress (they go by a name that rhymes with schmepublicans) that would have punished him severely if he had done that. The presidency is not as all-powerful as some people think it is, sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.

When President Obama took office, Democrats controlled both the House and Senate. You can't hang this one on Republicans. Both parties were equal participants in keeping the Guantanamo detention facility open. Congress sets the annual federal budget. The Democrat controlled Congress literally allocated dollars to run that facility. If Democrats actually wanted to close it they could have eliminated funding, but they…

I'm amazed how 100-to-zero can magically be 50-50.
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