Live data from Hacker News

Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

danluu.com

71–80 of 542 posts

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#71
post #44

Because we have unreasonable expectations. Making things work well is hard, and thus expensive. Take a chair, for example. Anyone can make a chair: just get a bucket, turn it over, and sit on it. Boom; backless chair. Want a backrest, arms? Get a 2x4, a saw, a drill, and some bolts. An hour later: Boom; chair. You want a chair that works well? How do you even define works well for a chair? Do you need cushioning? Do…

an aeron chair costs about $2000 dollars (give or take). The construction is sturdy, so i expect it to last at least 10 years, if not 20 (you take care of it etc). So the amortized cost is some 100-200 dollars a year for an excellent chair. If you buy a crappy chair, i bet that the cushion starts failing after a year or so of constant sitting. So you'd probably replace it yearly, or suffer a bad chair for a few years…

If you expect a $2000 chair to last a mere 10 years, unless the user is 300 lbs or something IMHO your standards are pretty low.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#72
post #16

I think it's that you don't notice things that work well. House foundations, light switches, filesystems, silicon manufacturing, water delivery, grocery store logistics, etc etc etc. These are all things that most people never notice because they just work. It doesn't even occur to people day-to-day that these things can fail.

As usual its just how much money you put in to it. We spend a lot of money making sure building foundations and silicon manufacturing works because failing is expensive and dangerous. I don't want to pay double/triple price for a toaster to slightly reduce its risk of failing because I'm happy to accept that on average it lasts a long time but there is some chance it fails sooner. If I'm in charge of buying a $100M b…

I beg to differ, many of these large household companies are shells of their former selves as they've been bought, bankrupted, and traded around. What's left is just a name with no solid product line backing it anymore. E.g. Sunbeam was a solid household appliance name, and now it's a crap. Same with Braun.

The easy industrial design exercise seems to be luxurious looking materials paired with cheap electronics. Amazon is full of this. Oddly, the thing I end up trusting these days are in-house brands because the store has some responsibility to make sure their own brand's reputation doesn't get too tarnished.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every sale has a customer.

Not every customer can assess the quality of a product. I can judge the quality of a violin, but I can't tell you how long the compressor in a refrigerator will last.

This is why the only signal that customers used to have got removed - a refrigerator that had the same design and components for twenty years is likely well made (if it weren’t people would have found out or changed the parts).

But these are rare (one of the few I know of is Speed Queen but I suspect there are others in other industries, mainly commercial/industrial products).

Amusingly enough these work best when innovation is basically dead, so that a new one and a twenty year old one is basically the same.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#74
post #44

Because we have unreasonable expectations. Making things work well is hard, and thus expensive. Take a chair, for example. Anyone can make a chair: just get a bucket, turn it over, and sit on it. Boom; backless chair. Want a backrest, arms? Get a 2x4, a saw, a drill, and some bolts. An hour later: Boom; chair. You want a chair that works well? How do you even define works well for a chair? Do you need cushioning? Do…

an aeron chair costs about $2000 dollars (give or take). The construction is sturdy, so i expect it to last at least 10 years, if not 20 (you take care of it etc). So the amortized cost is some 100-200 dollars a year for an excellent chair. If you buy a crappy chair, i bet that the cushion starts failing after a year or so of constant sitting. So you'd probably replace it yearly, or suffer a bad chair for a few years…

At $100-200 per year? No, the cushion won't be failing after a year. That would be a $30 chair.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#75
post #3

It's not profitable. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_White_Suit

I think there's a reason why that's a comedy film instead of a serious take on modern consumerism. We have plenty of "indestructible" tools today. Cast Iron skillets, hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches, ladders. Most furniture qualifies as well (though MDF-board crap exists, they still have a use. Its more efficient for a college-student to get disposable MDF-based crap for their dorms with a lifespan of ~4 years or les…

> I think there's a reason why that's a comedy film instead of a serious take on modern consumerism.

Yeah, because corporations/people wouldn't conspire to limit say life of lightbulbs or reduce competition, right? Right?! Right?!

Just because something is a comedy doesn't mean someone in real world didn't do it/ is doing it/ won't do it.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#76
post #41
post #8

> Why is it hard to buy things that work well? Asks someone that posts a giant wall of unreadable text.

The website has basically no CSS, so it's up to your user agent to decide on its default presentation. Just so happens that modern user agents don't really care about bare HTML, just CSS and JavaScript, so your default presentation is optimized to 1990s hardware at 800x600. I guess "reader mode" is slang for "what the user-agent should be doing to make documents reasonable for modern displays", so press that button i…

I'm usually just in reading mode, but occasionally I turn it off to see a/the blogs design because I feel it gives just a little bit more context to any post of text (for example, the author has a playful design and it gives me a small idea of their character). Unfortunate it's hardly readable, but it still says something about the author. HN is fun :)

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#77
post #35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or through the erosion of real wages over the past 50 years, consumers have been more or less forced into buying lower priced items. And was this not the promise of free trade and globalization - cheap stuff? Edit: why downvote?

Cheap stuff that used to be wood or metal and last for 100 years has turned into plastic cheap stuff that you write a nyt column about if it manages to survive the demands of regular expected usage for 1 year.

I think there are plenty of good things made out of plastic. Legos never break, for example.

Particle board furniture is annoying. You scuff off the veneer, and the item is essentially ruined. Wood is "self healing" in the sense that scratching it exposes more wood, so it doesn't look as terrible.

Personally, I've found software to be the worst thing about modern devices. A long time ago, I bought a terrible Tiertime 3D printer. It doesn't accept gcode from the computer, so you have to slice models using their proprietary app, and it's absolutely horrible. Requires registration before use, doesn't work at all. I used it once, was disgusted with the software (being unable to slice a model more complicated than a cube), and put the thing in the box with the goal to return it. For various reasons that never happened. Three years later, I decided I was tired of looking at the box and can always use another 3D printer, so I did a "brain transplant". I replaced their proprietary logic board with an open source one (Duet 3 Mini 5+). Now the printer works great. (Before the project was done and I was getting my bearings on the internals, I was appalled at the shortcuts they took. Sheet metal instead of extrusions. Heated bed connected to the power supply with flatflex cable, hotend connected with a ribbon cable, 19V power supply instead of 24V just for a tiny bit of extra savings on inductors. But honestly, the design is fine, it was just their software that made it unusable. I learned a lot about cost reduction by taking that thing apart, and I'm impressed how good of a job they did making it cheap without actually making it work badly. The ABS enclosure is also top notch, some of the best injection molding I've ever seen on a $300 product. No way you could make something that good yourself for the price of the whole machine.)

I've also had some good repair experience on modern, cheap, made-in-China electronics. I have a Siglent oscilloscope, and one day, one of the knobs locked up. I resigned myself to just never using that channel again, but on a 2 channel oscilloscope there aren't really channels to spare. Knowing I wasn't going to find $10,000 laying around for a proper instrument that would have good encoders, I begrudgingly opened it up. Everything was held together with screws, and I had the front I/O board out in a half hour. Desoldered the broken encoder, soldered on a random encoder from my parts bin, put everything back together, and ... perfectly working oscilloscope. It wasn't unrepairable, it was merely uneconomical to repair. If I was writing software instead of repairing the 'scope, I could have just bought a new one. But it was some Saturday night at 3AM when I was too tired to do anything except watch crappy YouTube videos, which nobody will pay me hundreds of dollars to do. So it ended up being quite economical.

I forgot where I was going with this, but basically if you can open something up, today's manufacturing is as good as any manufacturing in the past. Someone that wants to repair or mod, can. (Until you run into glue. Oh how I hate glue.)

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which?

house foundations, water delivery off the top of my head, logistics in general possibly if I'm wanting to stretch the term.

Foundations change (tensioned slab, etc) and water inside of houses (copper vs pvc vs PEX vs lead). Electrical is even in frequent flux under those timescales. Insulation as well.

Very little stays consistent…

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual its just how much money you put in to it. We spend a lot of money making sure building foundations and silicon manufacturing works because failing is expensive and dangerous. I don't want to pay double/triple price for a toaster to slightly reduce its risk of failing because I'm happy to accept that on average it lasts a long time but there is some chance it fails sooner. If I'm in charge of buying a $100M b…

There’s a lot of stuff that works remarkably well even though it’s cheap. I just came from a supermarket. It’s filled with items from around the world, of which most are very inexpensive. The consistent quality of these products is astounding—a bag of potato chips or a box of crackers tastes exactly the same, anywhere in the country where I buy it, year-round. A can of Coca-Cola tastes exactly the same even though th…

Conversely there are lot of things that are expensive and work very badly. "Designer anything" as for example, designer light fixtures. I've had terrible experiences with these.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#80

Looking through old Sears catalogs and seeing the prizes on older game shows, I think some of our memory is selective. Even in photos and SD video you can see the terrible build quality on many consumer products from those earlier times. This seems to be especially true for furniture and exercise equipment. When you convert into current dollars, this low quality junk often is more expensive than what is available tod…

In other words, 90% of everything is crap, both then and now. And thanks to Lindy's Law, you're usually better off buying something old than something new. But that's not how most people think :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

Post reply on HN