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Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

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Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#61
Hosting data on servers located in the EU isn't required by GDPR in and of itself, as long as you have a valid data processing agreement with the provider stating how and according to which provisions customer data is protected on their machines.

However, according to a relatively recent European Court of Justice ruling you're not allowed to transfer any personally identifiable information to companies that are in any way affiliated with a US-based entity (e.g., by virtue of having a US-based parent company) anymore. Just being physically located in the EU isn't sufficient according to this ruling.

The reason for this is that with FISA US law enforcement can force US-based companies to hand over any data, even if that data is stored with an international subsidiary under a completely different jurisdiction.

This basically invalidates all of the provisions and legal frameworks for interacting with non-EU entities that used to be acceptable under GDPR before (e.g., Privacy Shield).

However, not interacting with any US-based or US-related entities at all anymore would be tantamount to ceasing almost all economic activity. So, until (or more pessimistically: unless) the US and the EU come to terms on a new agreement regarding privacy rules, there probably isn't anything a business can do on its own to completely address this issue. At this point, merely hosting data on servers physically located in the EU perhaps amounts to little more than window dressing.

Realistically, as of now your best option probably is to continue to put in your best effort to protect customer data (which might include hosting data exclusively in the EU) and document everything in the process.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of PII can be a bit grey, some have deemed that IP addresses of the service provider, although not identifiable to a specific customer, can also be seen as PII as they can all people to be identified within a small group of users (where the IP does not resolve to a specific user). Even companies within the EU are being told that they need to be cautious how and when they collect data, and how it needs…

It is quite easy really. If you are not able to identify a person by IP it is not PII. It MAY be PII for ISPs for example if they are able to associate the IPs to customers so they would have to treat it as such.

The definition is:

>personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

The lack of an actor in the sentence is key. In other words, just because you can't identify the person with the data you have doesn't mean it's not PII. If a piece of data can theoretically be traced back to a person then it's PII.

GPDR is extraordinary in its attempts to be as broad as possible. As written it covers effectively every bit of data you collect.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#63
post #11

With all the "IANAL" answers here, let me give you a different one: if it's viable, I would try to host all data in the EU for all your EU customers regardless of the legal situation. Because the legal situation is likely to change further - just plain and simple, it's a risk, and if your cost in avoiding that risk is sufficiently low, that might be worth it. And you can advertise it as a benefit to your customers.

This is a bit fantastical. Splitting up operations from a single data centre (vast majority of situations) is quite costly and adds a lot of complexity. 'You can advertise to your customers' - except that nobody really cares that much, or at least care enough to the point it makes a difference in terms of purchasing behaviour. I mean - everyone would 'like to know that their data is local' but that does not translate…

> This is a bit fantastical.

That's a very generic statement on a situation that can have a zillion factors ;)

> 'You can advertise to your customers' - except that nobody really cares that much,

I do know quite a bunch of people who care, so "nobody" is demonstrably wrong. That said, the people I associate with tend to be tech-savvy, privacy conscious and have disposable income, so I'll agree it's probably not a large percentage. But I don't know what OP's target audience is either...

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit fantastical. Splitting up operations from a single data centre (vast majority of situations) is quite costly and adds a lot of complexity. 'You can advertise to your customers' - except that nobody really cares that much, or at least care enough to the point it makes a difference in terms of purchasing behaviour. I mean - everyone would 'like to know that their data is local' but that does not translate…

> This is a bit fantastical. That's a very generic statement on a situation that can have a zillion factors ;) > 'You can advertise to your customers' - except that nobody really cares that much, I do know quite a bunch of people who care, so "nobody" is demonstrably wrong. That said, the people I associate with tend to be tech-savvy, privacy conscious and have disposable income, so I'll agree it's probably not a lar…

"That's a very generic statement on a situation that can have a zillion factors ;"

There is 'one factor' that's relevant, and that is there is no apparent need to move data to the EU, and even not that basis it's not clear if that would be sufficient.

The 'factor' is that it's a fuzzy requirement at best that definitely will require investment and opportunity cost.

" so "nobody" is demonstrably wrong. "

It's besides the point, there are almost 0 products on the market for which 'hosted in EU' will move the needle on customer acquisition. Maybe some SaaS here and there, but even in that case, it would be a feature that could be researched and then one could write a material business case around 'moving it to the EU to acquire customer segment X which is worth $Y in revenue. And that's definitely something that would start coming back from the sales team i.e. 'Big EU Co. asked about this, it's going to be key in the sale' - which is how regular product operations are done.

But without needing to do it, it makes little sense.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of PII can be a bit grey, some have deemed that IP addresses of the service provider, although not identifiable to a specific customer, can also be seen as PII as they can all people to be identified within a small group of users (where the IP does not resolve to a specific user). Even companies within the EU are being told that they need to be cautious how and when they collect data, and how it needs…

It is quite easy really. If you are not able to identify a person by IP it is not PII. It MAY be PII for ISPs for example if they are able to associate the IPs to customers so they would have to treat it as such.

No. IP addresses are considered PII. PII that in many use cases don't need consent (logging, spam prevention, etc.), but still PII.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#66
Hi @oliv__17, I am a DPO (PHD in law) and a developer, the best advice I could give you is to host your data in EU, of course, but also only by using the services of a company that is European itself, and not controlled or owned by a US company or person. This means that you can no longer rely on AWS or G Cloud. This is due to the fact that there is the Cloud Act, that is not compatible with GDPR requirements about data transfers outside EU (for more details you can also check decisions of the CNIL, the french authority for data protection, or even the one of the Austrian equivalent, ruling about the new prohibited use of Google Analytics).

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite easy really. If you are not able to identify a person by IP it is not PII. It MAY be PII for ISPs for example if they are able to associate the IPs to customers so they would have to treat it as such.

The definition is: >personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, menta…

This was the finding of the case Patrick Breyer vs Germany in 2016

https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...

  What makes a dynamic IP address personal data?
The CJEU decided that a dynamic IP address will be personal data in the hands of a website operator if:

there is another party (such as an ISP) that can link the dynamic IP address to the identity of an individual; and the website operator has a "legal means" of obtaining access to the information held by the ISP in order to identify the individual. On the facts, if the BRD has the legal power to compel the relevant ISP to disclose sufficient information to identify Mr Breyer, then Mr Breyer's IP address will be personal data in the hands of the BRD.

The CJEU also did not ask the specific question in that case - Were the BRD LIKELY to identify Mr Breyer? If this is something that you have never done before or will do in the future then it is not likely that you will try to identify someone by their IP.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#68
As a CISO from Germany I can tell you the problems we have, if we want to use US-based services. As soon as we want to transfer PII to such services we have to write down a full Data Protection Impact Assessment for our legal regulators. Since the USA isn't a "safe destination country" under EU laws (especially EU GDPR), we have to ensure that the data is transferred and stored encrypted by the services. In addition we need a written(!) Data Processing Agreement, that ensures the services are not transferring any data to third parties including intelligence agencies and that all data is only processed within the limitations of GDPR. This contract also must ensure, that the provider informs us, if any intelligence agency asks for our data. So, it's a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to handle. And finally we need an entry in our data processing index that defines a security contact at the service provider together with details about the kind of data we transfer to the service. However, it doesn't make any difference if your servers are located in the EU or in the US, at least from the legal perspective. If we transfer data to US-based companies we have to do all that. But it makes European companies feel better if the servers at least can't be seized by U.S. intelligence agencies. ;) But... we'll get a better latency if the servers are located in the EU. And as far as I know GCP also offers data centers in the EU.

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#69

IANAL. You don't need to host it in the EU per se, but you must host the data in a country with similar privacy protections. Practically, this means no US cloud hosts. I'd recommend replicating your cluster to a European cloud provider if you want to be sure. Hosted Elasticsearch and MySQL/Postgres are available in tons of European cloud providers, sometimes for a lower price than their American competitors. It's mor…

> the GDPR only protects personally identifiable data

Be very careful with this - the GDPR is not just about PII. It covers any data related to someone who could be identified directly (e.g., a name) or indirectly (several anonymous traits that realistically could only be one person).

Any data related to such a person is covered, even if that data itself isn't PII. The data they've uploaded, your logs of their system activity, the support tickets they've filed, it's all covered.

The wording in GDPR Article 4.1 is "‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person"

Re: Ask HN: Do I have to host all data in the EU to comply with GDPR?

#70
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition is: >personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, menta…

This was the finding of the case Patrick Breyer vs Germany in 2016 https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-... What makes a dynamic IP address personal data? The CJEU decided that a dynamic IP address will be personal data in the hands of a website operator if: there is another party (such as an ISP) that can link the dynamic IP address to the identity of an individual; and the website operator ha…

From your cite:

>Where a piece of information (such as an IP address) does not directly identify a person, that piece of information will nevertheless be personal data in the hands of any party that can lawfully obtain sufficient additional data to link the information to a person's real world identity

In a world of data brokers that makes IP addresses PII. The only way it's not is if you verify that there is no way you can lawfully obtain additional data to link the IP to a person. I don't see how you can practically do that.

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