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Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

michaeldehaan.substack.com

121–130 of 132 posts

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#121

I was recently watching a YT lecture from Geoffrey Moore, and one student raise their question about MVP. Their argument is that MVP doesn't work in B2C because no one wants to use your shitty product. Everyone expected everything to be complete. I think this makes sense from my experience. If you have web, people will ask if you have mobile. If you have iOS, they will ask if you have Android. And given the YC have s…

Interesting, I had the opposite idea. I come from doing B2C product and now work at a B2B SaaS company and my first thought was that B2B is so much harder to crack because existing solutions are really feature complete and clients are not going to tolerate for your service to have quirks or errors. I guess B2B and B2C are not that much different regarding user tolerance and it just comes down to how much unique value…

This is probably just a lack of familiarity with the playbook for selling B2B. People that have been doing it a long time can intuitively navigate around these obvious objections.

Outside of some rare cases, there are standard positioning techniques to avoid being evaluated for completeness relative to whatever the business has. For example, not positioning your product as a replacement for existing products -- "and" not "or" -- is an effective approach. Trying to be a feature for feature clone of an existing product they already use is a losing proposition, so having a strategy to reframe the discussion away from that perspective is a requirement.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#122
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it leaves little room for corrective action Building an MVP means getting something in front of customers as soon as possible, in order to test your product works for customers and change it if you're wrong. The entire point of an MVP is to give you as much time to change things as possible. Everything you do prior to putting your product in front of someone might be wrong. The only validation that counts is the cust…

When I say there's little room for corrective action, I am specifically speaking about the choice to pursue the MVP strategy. A person who starts a company and decides to embrace the MVP strategy is stuck on a hamster wheel: if they've spent a year and not validated anything positively, they cannot "just" change strategy because the organisation has been built atop of the idea of small ideas, not big ideas. My experi…

You're expecting normal people to successfully invent the car? I have much more faith in them forming a relationship with a paying customer, and offering a small process improvement through a MVP.

An MVP will also help with appropriately market timing of your product. If the client is asking for a faster horse, you might want to look at innovating the saddle or horseshoe first. You might be 1000 years too early with your car engine idea.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#123
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to say this. The author of the article does not understand what an MVP is. An MVP is the eventual answer to a metric fuckton of customer development, not what you go into customer development with. If you think you already know what the customer wants, I wish you luck at your next startup after this one fails; you don’t know that, and neither does your customer, or they would have built / bought it alread…

Some startups are created by experienced customers, and in these cases you often absolutely do know what the customer wants. Empirically, these can succeed without any significant customer development. Customer development becomes much more important if the startup lacks real domain and market expertise. Also, while customer development might work well for web apps and such, there are classes of software where custom…

Customer development is always important. What constitutes an MVP may change, based on the industry or the customer, but the concept of talking to your customers regularly, understanding their problems, and iterating quickly doesn’t change.

As much as a founder would like to say they are the customer… they aren’t. They are a customer, and finding the commonalities amongst potential customers so you can build something they want is important. The founder being a customer just kickstarts that process and means the founder can ask better (aka “the right”) questions.

Which markets are you referring to? Gov requires customer dev, which is why there are often grants. Med requires customer dev, as building simply a better device rarely wins - it needs to be much better than existing solutions, and the only way you get there is by finding out what the problems are with existing solutions. Same goes for banking, etc

Domain and market expertise is always a benefit, but rarely a strict requirement for success. The ability to listen carefully, and iterate quickly, is much more important.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#124
post #67
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other big reason for an MVP is to get from 'customers told us they want this' to 'customers are actually paying for this' as quickly as possible. All to often potential customers say they want X, but really have no idea what they want. The only surefire way to know if a product is on the right path is to have customers using and paying for the product.

All to often potential customers say they want X, but really have no idea what they want. Or they actually do really want and need X _right now_. However when you come back with X in 18 month then the customer has already solved X themselves, found another company that can do X or don't really need X any more.

It’s quite rare that a customer knows exactly what they need; often, if they do, they build it.

The wins happen when a customer knows what problems they have, and you can present a solution that solves them better than they could otherwise get elsewhere.

Otherwise, as you say, they will build it or buy it elsewhere.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#125
Every time I read something like this, I am reminded of the story of the blind men and the elephant [0].

It sounds like the author had some success and, now that they had that success, they are going around imposing their world view on others whose paths to success may necessarily require different strategies and patterns of thoughts. Because they are different fucking people from the author, under different conditions, and with different interests and passions.

This articles is meant to advertise the author's endeavors as a speaker and perhaps as a coach. Nothing more.

If you are struggling with your business, please disregard this article as drivel. You have many paths to success or failure. None of them are universal.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#126
post #36
post #8

Your company shouldn’t be in search of a business model, you should know what you need to build. This is exactly what killed my first startup. We believed we fully understood what the customer needs and that we should build the right product before we started selling. We were actually trying to build the minimum viable product, but we were hilariously (with hindsight) wrong about what the customers wanted. Almost all…

I came here to say this. The author of the article does not understand what an MVP is. An MVP is the eventual answer to a metric fuckton of customer development, not what you go into customer development with. If you think you already know what the customer wants, I wish you luck at your next startup after this one fails; you don’t know that, and neither does your customer, or they would have built / bought it alread…

Agreed.

The management of requirements in building anything needs to be structured properly to manage client expectations because it's often the first point of failure on development projects. MVP is a concept that is implemented on mission critical projects in order to insure a minimally acceptable point of project success, not to "be" project success... Anything else that can be added (within the implementation time frame) after base goals are met is a bonus.

Scope and schedule creep are 2 of the biggest threats to any major project, and it takes technical oversight just as much as managerial oversight... Technical Architects usually bridge this gap on projects.

An MVP is meant to be something that is generalized enough to fit KEY customer needs in a limited time frame, not ALL of the customer's needs, and customers inherently try to squeeze changes in during execution in large-scale projects. MVP for small-scale and startup projects may not mesh well, unless needs are well defined by an accountable customer.

An MVP is a contractual deliverable, so it shouldn't be delivered or even started before that contract is properly written and signed off.

Key aspects of a successful MVP -

It needs to be scale-able and mindful of future integrations and functionality.

It needs to be able to pivot and adjust to change, especially changes outside of your control (e.g. The Pandemic).

The data therein needs to maintain integrity and transfer-ability.

This is why experienced IT/Business architects are necessary on key projects. They incorporate business drivers, requirements, project management objectives, and technical teams into meaningful language, documentation, and project outcomes.

When you struggle on without an architect, projects suffer from a lack of direction, mixed communication, and often waste lots of money on back tracking solutions.

MVP is also a "version control" and project/client management concept/methodology, not a development language. The author broke down the title based on the words used. Taking time out to really investigate an understand why so many credible people use the term is a better move than declaring it obsolete.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#127
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some startups are created by experienced customers, and in these cases you often absolutely do know what the customer wants. Empirically, these can succeed without any significant customer development. Customer development becomes much more important if the startup lacks real domain and market expertise. Also, while customer development might work well for web apps and such, there are classes of software where custom…

Customer development is always important. What constitutes an MVP may change, based on the industry or the customer, but the concept of talking to your customers regularly, understanding their problems, and iterating quickly doesn’t change. As much as a founder would like to say they are the customer… they aren’t. They are a customer, and finding the commonalities amongst potential customers so you can build somethin…

Agreed, super super important to do customer dev.

What I haven't seen mentioned here is that if you do customer dev right, you get a leg up on sales.

One of the slickest founders I know would get conversations with his target customers to ask about their jobs + workflows. He'd learn from everyone but he kept note of the people who shared the same problem he was targeting. He now has a list of dozens of people who he has a relationship with who would make great first customers.

He didn't need to build a landing page or even a prototype in figma because he was just talking to people to learn about what they do.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#128
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some startups are created by experienced customers, and in these cases you often absolutely do know what the customer wants. Empirically, these can succeed without any significant customer development. Customer development becomes much more important if the startup lacks real domain and market expertise. Also, while customer development might work well for web apps and such, there are classes of software where custom…

Customer development is always important. What constitutes an MVP may change, based on the industry or the customer, but the concept of talking to your customers regularly, understanding their problems, and iterating quickly doesn’t change. As much as a founder would like to say they are the customer… they aren’t. They are a customer, and finding the commonalities amongst potential customers so you can build somethin…

I've worked on products where customer development was essential and also on products where it was largely useless for product development. You are assuming things about the product development process and customer interactions that are not always true. That doesn't imply that you don't talk to customers or don't understand their problems, just that this can be disconnected, often necessarily, from the product being developed.

As an example, hard tech products in data infrastructure often have this property. Famously, there are no incremental product outputs to show customers (or investors) as a matter of fundamental engineering; the product has to be almost fully baked before it can demonstrate anything of value at all. Customers have a difficult time understanding the implications of fundamentally new capabilities until they have time to play with them; they provide no useful feedback until the product has already reached a stage where this is possible (read: almost fully baked). And of course, there is no "iterate quickly" because the product value follows from architecture; if the architecture isn't correct the first time then iterating on the product means starting over from scratch. Consequently, the only people that can successfully build these products are people with serious expertise in the product and its use case. Even if you try to do customer development, there is nothing for the customer to engage with until you are well past the point where their feedback can materially change the product.

In these cases, no amounts of customer development will make up for a lack of deep domain and market expertise. The lean startup/MVP/customer development etc literature tacitly assumes that every product is an "app" of some type. If you work on software products that are not "apps" then you may find some of the advice to be misguided or useless.

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#129
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customer development is always important. What constitutes an MVP may change, based on the industry or the customer, but the concept of talking to your customers regularly, understanding their problems, and iterating quickly doesn’t change. As much as a founder would like to say they are the customer… they aren’t. They are a customer, and finding the commonalities amongst potential customers so you can build somethin…

I've worked on products where customer development was essential and also on products where it was largely useless for product development. You are assuming things about the product development process and customer interactions that are not always true. That doesn't imply that you don't talk to customers or don't understand their problems, just that this can be disconnected, often necessarily, from the product being…

See, I’m not convinced that’s true. Having built hard tech products before, there are plenty of places for iteration.

The catch is that you iterate the plan and architecture, before you write any significant code. In this case, it’s even more important to listen carefully to the customer and pay attention to the underlying problem.

For example, it may not have made sense to build Docker because “everyone uses VMs” and Vagrant was already a thing. But when talking to customers, they would have described ample problems with the existing approach - if you carefully listened, you could surmise that something like basic Linux containers would help, and you could provide a basic prototype of that to start. When they complain it lacks features, that’s okay, if and only if they still want to use it - THAT is the sign of PMF.

Want to build a new data warehouse? That’s hard, I agree - but the important part isn’t that it’s hard but why it’s better which is going to come from customer development. If listening to customers isn’t driving your product roadmap, you are literally guessing at what they need, and unless you’re Steve Jobs and your next product is the iPhone, you’re in for a rough time.

(And even the iPhone had plenty of customer dev; they interviewed thousands of people about their cell phones and surmised the solution wasn’t simply to build a better keyboard for a Palm Pilot, but to build a brand new device entirely, because people loved their phones but they had limited use. The Newton, on the other hand, had no market because people weren’t ready for it and it was built in a lab with no customers to talk to.)

Re: Minimal Viable Product is old and busted

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you're FAANG and launch that sort of MVP going against mature products from your competitors Then you haven't launched a viable product. You haven't made an MVP.

Is it really a Minimum Viable Product if it needs to have every single feature that the incumbents already have?

If it doesn't stand a chance it's not viable, right?

What is smallest product we can build to learn something from and iterate with. If you build something too small that no one uses because it doesn't have enough features, then you can't learn anything from it (apart from you need to build more).

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