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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#181

Post by scrollaway »

ziml77 wrote: post #176
scrollaway wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propag…

Is that what's happening to the general opinion in the US? I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I don't know anyone who's decided that what Russia is doing is fine since the US has also attacked other countries.

Slowly happening but as far as I can see, it is the case. Very early after the 24th, the opinion was extremely pro Ukraine, but it's been slowly trending down, with a pro-Russia voice taking over.

Not just "because US has done worse", but anything from "it's our fault because of NATO" to "Ukraine is supposed to be Russian anyway, he's taking back what's his".

It's not the majority opinion (yet), but it's worrisome.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#182

Post by xdennis »

marcosdumay wrote: post #159
stef25 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeri…

> What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real. Way to lose the point. Nothing on that paragraph is different from the Bush Jr. excursions into the Middle East and threats all over the world? Not to say the entire situation is alike. It…

> Nothing on that paragraph is different from the Bush Jr. excursions into the Middle East

Irak was a dictatorship which committed genocide on its own people. Even if the reasons weren't true (and they weren't but people believed the propaganda at the time) there was at least the hope that things would improve for the people. (For the Kurds, they have.)

Ukraine is a democracy. The propaganda isn't even good enough to fool anyone.

The situations are very different.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#183

Post by koolba »

asimpletune wrote: post #36

I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.

> I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website.

So it's not doxxing because they're Russians?

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#184

Post by hutzlibu »

scrollaway wrote: post #173
hutzlibu wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we are at war" Erm, no we are not. Russia is at war with the ukraine, but not with the EU, nor the USA. So maybe do not escalate? "where is the rule of the law not being respected" Where is it? It is not the case btw. that there is a title called "oligarchs". What all of this means in its current shape, is targeting simply rich russian people. Now sure, chances are quite high, that they got to their wealth through c…

> Erm, no we are not Yes, we are. Like I said upthread, we're sending aid and weapons en masse into Ukraine. Putin has put us on a shit-list of countries, and even called the sanctions a declaration of war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482 It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation. It's also being fought online, over social networks, with Russians actively spreading propaganda o…

"ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please. "

I know, I know, only good propaganda supporting your cause is allowed here by your opinion.

But can you please explain to me, why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen? Because they are also dying right now, too and in greater numbers. Caused by "our" allies. Not only in the past - but also today.

I think we need to be doing something about both. Otherwise it is just hypocrisy.

"It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation."

And yes, with every fanatic statement, chances of escalation are increasing. But have you heard of something called "Mutual assured destruction"? Sowjet Union did probably way worse than russia today, but was not attacked. That's why.

"I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet."

And do you know that you can go there and fight today? Ukraine is welcoming volunteers. But maybe bear in mind, that unlike in CoD, you might actually die there on day one. And it likely won't be heroic. War seldom is, nor black and white, especially not if it is in part a civil war. And you might end up fighting next to actual fascists. Not (only) against them, but with them. Stepan Bandera is considered a National Hero there to many. Google him if you are curious. And then about the Regiment Asow. And then about the ukrainian law, that was targeted against the russian language way before the war. Not against russian propaganda, but against the russian language(and people). Putin is a war criminal, belonging to Den Haag - but the ukrainian side are not made up by saints either.

""official definitions" don't matter."

And unlike in your opinion, official definitions actually matter a lot, because the moment russia attacks NATO territory - ALL NATO forces will react. Not before, no matter how great the lust for war, for people beating the drums of war online.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#185

Post by scrollaway »

hutzlibu wrote: post #184
scrollaway wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Erm, no we are not Yes, we are. Like I said upthread, we're sending aid and weapons en masse into Ukraine. Putin has put us on a shit-list of countries, and even called the sanctions a declaration of war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482 It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation. It's also being fought online, over social networks, with Russians actively spreading propaganda o…

"ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please. " I know, I know, only good propaganda supporting your cause is allowed here by your opinion. But can you please explain to me, why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen? Because they are also dying right now, too and in greater numbers. Caused by "our" allies. Not only in the past - but also today. I think we need to be doing something about both. Otherwise…

> why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen

This is whataboutism, again. I never said such a thing. I'm more involved in the war in Ukraine because I have personal stakes in it.

This thread, HERE, is about Ukraine. You're trying to make it about Yemen. I have a close acquaintance currently dying of cancer, do you see me making this thread about cancer?

> And do you know that you can go there and fight today?

Yes, I'm acutely aware. I almost signed up. I decided not to, because I do not have military training. Since the attacks, I've been taking first aid and firearm training, whatever I have time for. I intend to take combat training later this year. Don't think I'm sitting idle here; the best thing I can do until I'm ready, is fight propaganda.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#186

Post by insickness »

wilde wrote: post #66

So much whattaboutism in this thread. We are at war. Seizing property of the other belligerents is a very normal thing to do in a war. Russia is currently seizing assets from American companies who leave the country. Russia is currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals. This is a somewhat tame escalation in that light.

You complain about whattaboutism then point out that Russia is doing the same thing three sentences later. "We are at war" has been used to justify the worst atrocities in human history.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#187

Post by qaq »

gambler wrote: post #138
asimpletune wrote: post #36

I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.

Reframing mass doxing as crowd sourcing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.

Yes those poor cleptocrat oligarchs with their 100 mil+ yachts being doxed

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#188

Post by hutzlibu »

scrollaway wrote: post #185
hutzlibu wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please. " I know, I know, only good propaganda supporting your cause is allowed here by your opinion. But can you please explain to me, why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen? Because they are also dying right now, too and in greater numbers. Caused by "our" allies. Not only in the past - but also today. I think we need to be doing something about both. Otherwise…

> why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen This is whataboutism, again . I never said such a thing. I'm more involved in the war in Ukraine because I have personal stakes in it. This thread, HERE, is about Ukraine. You're trying to make it about Yemen. I have a close acquaintance currently dying of cancer, do you see me making this thread about cancer? > And do you know that you can go there and fig…

"This thread, HERE, is about Ukraine. You're trying to make it about Yemen."

No, I am trying to make it about peace. How to resolve conflicts. And I seriously doubt we can really resolve conflicts, if we only solve some conflicts, but profit of others. Because yes - we profit of the war in Yemen. By selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and buying their oil (and in the case of the US also with direct military involvement). As long as we do that(and all the other shit) - how can anyone take us seriously when we say we care for peace and democracy? That's double standards and hypocrisy, which is the fuel for war and conflict.

"the best thing I can do until I'm ready, is fight propaganda."

So you want to fight propaganda? Why not fight the propaganda, that we are the good guys fighting the bad guys. Because this is not true, if we only do it sometimes and ignore the many times we don't.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#189

Post by ziml77 »

scrollaway wrote: post #181
ziml77 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that what's happening to the general opinion in the US? I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I don't know anyone who's decided that what Russia is doing is fine since the US has also attacked other countries.

Slowly happening but as far as I can see, it is the case. Very early after the 24th, the opinion was extremely pro Ukraine, but it's been slowly trending down, with a pro-Russia voice taking over. Not just "because US has done worse", but anything from "it's our fault because of NATO" to "Ukraine is supposed to be Russian anyway, he's taking back what's his". It's not the majority opinion (yet), but it's worrisome.

I've heard people blame the US for the war which only makes sense insomuch as we're not appeasing Putin. It's not like anyone was forcing Ukraine into NATO. As far as I can tell the only reason they wanted to join was because they were afraid of Russia doing exactly what they're doing right now.

I guess the idea that it's our fault spreads easily when it gives people another thing to say Biden has done wrong.

As for any claim that Ukraine is Russian, if that's a thought that anyone genuinely has and not just Russian disinformation agents, then I hope they have no problem letting Europe have their American colonies back. Or turning their homes over to the American natives.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#190

Post by forum_ghost »

newsclues wrote: post #54
barney54 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because they are American? The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.

Last couple of years big tech in America became quasi state actors, we are seeing it now on social media but the last election was a glaring example.

Last couple of years is just when it became blatantly obvious to pretty much everyone.

Google's founders were funded and supervised by DoD employees in their grad school.

https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...

Here is how "Google Earth" happened: "In-Q-Tel sold 5,636 shares of Google, worth over $2.2 million, on November 15, 2005. The shares were a result of Google's acquisition of Keyhole, Inc, the CIA-funded satellite mapping software now known as Google Earth."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel

Facebook launched in 2004. First check from Peter Thiel, who founded Palantir in 2003. DARPA's Lifelog was "cancelled" in 2003.

They were designed to be mass surveillance from the start. Some even funded directly be equity investments at pre-seed/seed stage. Others, funded at the research stage.

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