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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#151

Post by hutzlibu »

scrollaway wrote: post #147
hutzlibu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move. " Given recent russian history of fights between Putin and various oligarchs - I rather think it would be a idiotic move to target them all without due process - because the chances are actually quite high, that many of them oppose Putin.

We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches. This gets more of them to oppose Putin. And several are now having to come out publicly speaking against him. This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.

"We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches"

Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#152

Post by scotty79 »

dotancohen wrote: post #38
scrollaway wrote: post #19

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, i…

You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.

Yeah. USA should be treated exactly like that when they annexed parts of Mexico. But global economy wasn't developed to such a degree that this would have any impact back then.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#153

Post by aaron695 »

asimpletune wrote: post #36

I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.

No post body was provided.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#154

Post by [deleted] »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #150
scotty79 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.

> Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Shelling civillians? Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipe…

[deleted]

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#155

Post by detaro »

hutzlibu wrote: post #151
scrollaway wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches. This gets more of them to oppose Putin. And several are now having to come out publicly speaking against him. This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.

"We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches" Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".

and the reasons given for adding them to the sanctions list are not "some form of process"? (We can certainly argue if the process is sufficient, but targeted sanctions against named individuals is not the same as just grabbing everything with a russian name on it. And yes, some people are complaining that governments actually insist on proving that things belong to sanctioned people before acting, but "some people are complaining" is not the same as policy and what actually happens)

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#156

Post by ajsnigrutin »

scrollaway wrote: post #148
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's occupying syria. It's bombing somalia. And Yemen. They just pulled out of afghanistan after many years there, and they even fucked that up. Why cry about ukraine and not about syria? Why are you so keen on protecting the americans, when they're just as bad as putin? If america invaded ukraine, this would be just another "war for peace", like every other american war was.

Don't make accusations you can't back up. I never defended america's atrocities, repeatedly called them out, volunteered and donated time and money for Syria's refugee crisis as much as I could. I'm more personally involved in the Ukraine war because this is my government, and my extended family is targeted. But I never fucking ignored Syria, and I'm not ignoring it now. I'm saying that all you're doing here is helpi…

And I live in what was once Yugoslavia, and a part of our former country was bombed by nato.

Let's say you have a country, and there is a minority in that country... and people hate eachother a bit, due to historical reasons, there are tensions, a war, the minority unilaterally declares independence, some superpowers support them at this (others don't), main country disagrees and attacks the separatists, and after all that a superpower comes in and starts destroying the main country to get what they want.

If you're not sure if I'm talking about ukraine or kosovo, you're right, the scenario is the same, but since the americans were doing it back then, the destroying of the country was "good" and now it's "bad".

If switzerland pointed fingers at putin.. sure, point, curse, whatever. Nato members (including my current country now) should just stay quiet, because they did the same, many times before.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#157

Post by scotty79 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #150
scotty79 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.

> Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Shelling civillians? Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipe…

> Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks?

Because those are different things.

> So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?

No, I don't agree.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#158

Post by ilammy »

buro9 wrote: post #73
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

Taxes should be doing this. Progressive taxation should be uncapped, when you pass some threshold of "this is more than you need in the lifetimes of you, your partner, your next-of-kin to all live a life of unparalleled luxury" then it should escalate up to 99%, and if you pass some really obscene threshold equivalent to a small country's GDP then let it go to 100%. Wealth taxation should be effective. No individual…

> when you pass some threshold [...] then it should escalate up to 99%

Why stop at 100%? Assuming it is okay to put a cap on how much wealth and income a person can have, it should be sensible to have marginal tax rate higher than 100% of the taxable income.

You earn more than 100M in a year? Please pay 200M until your wealth is back to sensible levels. Alternatively, you can reduce your taxable income by making charitable donations willingly – same thing as far as balance is concerned, but you might feel differently about it.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#159

Post by marcosdumay »

stef25 wrote: post #140
someotherperson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes an…

Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeri…

> What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real.

Way to lose the point. Nothing on that paragraph is different from the Bush Jr. excursions into the Middle East and threats all over the world?

Not to say the entire situation is alike. It's not. But on those features it's similar.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#160

Post by ModernMech »

baq wrote: post #45
88840-8855 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeare…

the worst part about this is, most Russians in the west are basically asylum seekers now. their state went full totalitarian in the last couple weeks. i'm trying hard to make delimit the difference between Russians and Putin, but it's hard to get ordinary people to listen. MSM does not like nuance at all.

> their state went full totalitarian in the last couple weeks

I’m sorry but a state does not go full totalitarian in a week. Putin has been in control for 20 years. This, was predictable and many had been predicting it for a long time.

What happened over the last couple weeks is that “authoritarianism” has lost its sheen. Russian-style strongman authoritarianism has bee a twinkle in the eye of a certain strain of American and Western politician for some years now (I’m looking at you Peter “Democracy and freedom are incompatible” Thiel and Fox News), and people who previously called Putin a strong and capable leader are now either having to get on board with a genocidal war, or eat crow.

A lot of people (on this site and elsewhere) are still even pushing the lines coming straight out of the kremlin (but biolabs! But nato aggression! Think of the poor oligarchs’ seized yachts! Can we really call the invasion and slaughter of Ukrainian people and cultural identity a a genocide?). It’s really quite sad how self proclaimed free thinkers on this site so obviously push the Russian propaganda being circulated in their conservative newsfeeds. These talking points go from the Kremlin, to Fox News, then back to Russia to be aired on RT, and at some point they make a stop here on HN by avid “free thinking“ consumers of this media.

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