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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#81

Post by thriftwy »

jamespo wrote: post #5
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

"links to their government" is doing a lot of work there

How? The country doing the seizing is not at war with the government in question.

Even during the war you would expect the overseas property to be quarantined to use it as a lever during potential peace talks. As opposed to the unreversible confiscation such as giving it to somebody else to own. I'm not sure if that's what happening here.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#82

Post by thrw2355y »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

Governments should be doing more to redistribute wealth, not perpetuate inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies

Not quite sure which part of punk idealogies you are aligned with, but imo seizing assets of bloated billionaires that support and profit from war is definitely a punk move that I would support.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#83

Post by jltsiren »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

1. This is not private property in any meaningful sense of the word. Russia is not governed by the rule of the law. Those people are more like semiofficial branches of the government than private billionaires working within the system. They made their fortunes by taking advantage of corruption rather than in legitimate business.

2. Wars of this scale are not fought between governments but between societies. Anyone who contributes to the economy of Russia (or Ukraine) is participating in the war. Third countries that favor one side of the war may seize the property of those who are contributing to the other side. Legally and legitimately.

3. Property rights are only as strong as the governments guaranteeing them. If no government is able and willing to guarantee them, they cease to exist in any meaningful sense. Once the war is over and the dust has settled, the victors and their friends will sort out who owns what.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#84

Post by bluedino »

vowelless wrote: post #9

Should the world seize the assets of Silicon Valley billionaires over the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and other actions in MENA? Probably.

It'd make more sense if you said sized the assets of Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, the presidents of companies like Blackwater or Lockheed Martin and Halliburton, Kuwaiti and Afghani logistics companies...

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#85

Post by baq »

Tenoke wrote: post #34
raverbashing wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

>Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.

formally, they aren't.

i'd google what mr. neville chamberlain did in 1938, though.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#86

Post by refurb »

88840-8855 wrote: post #58
refurb wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. San Francisco fired the SF Symphony Director because... he's from Russia . Amazing how quickly our base, tribal instincts kick in when an "enemy" appears. All pretense to "peace" and "restraint" and "avoid foreign wars" goes out the window really damn quick . If you're the kind of person who looks back and thinks "man, how could America be so stupid to get involved in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"? Wel…

It works especially well when the enemy is somewhat predefined by the media and the general tropes and narratives in movies, games, books. The Chinese are evil, so are the Russians. Everyone knows that. Or Middle Eastern guys. They could be terrorists. All evil, we are good. Did you ever think that a Dutch or an Italian girl could be bad? I told my child to say that she has Ukranian roots (which she has, my grandmoth…

I feel for your situation and I'm sure as a parent, the treatment your daughter is getting is the most painful of all.

As they cliche goes "the veneer of civilization is thin".

Wishing you the best during these difficult times.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#87

Post by planb »

Fordec wrote: post #64
barney54 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because they are American? The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.

And Bezos, Bloomberg, Ellison, Thiel, etc. aren't quasi state actors?

Do you believe this is comparable? I'd be honestly interested why.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#88

Post by giantrobot »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

Seizing the assets of a de facto government agent of a sanctioned country is following due process. Governments decided by their own internal deliberation mechanisms to sanction Russia for its aggression in Ukraine. The world didn't magically decide to seize assets of some random Russian speakers because they said mean words.

> And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.

Nope, they relaxed rules specifically with regard to Russian armed forces[0]. It would be pretty ridiculous to ban a Facebook user in Ukraine that call for the defense of their country by attacking the invading soldiers.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-inst...

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#89

Post by nojito »

zakki wrote: post #75
twoodfin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

Quoted post unavailable.

No it most definitely doesn’t make them combatants.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#90

Post by cyberpunk »

raverbashing wrote: post #21
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

These things trickle down. It leads to stuff like this:

German clinic refuses to treat Russian Patients [0] Canada bans Russian pianist from performing [1]

0: https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-kei...

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artist...

Do you think that is OK? Because of a lunatic in their home country?

The same things were said about the Jews in the 1920's. We should try to be carful, and keep our empathy.

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