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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#41

Post by matthewmacleod »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

Yes, I think most of us would agree it is reasonably acceptable to freeze the assets of people who have close ties with a government currently engaged in an invasion that is being condemned by the people doing the seizing.

Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government?

I'm sure there are – and I hope that if, say, the US decides to invade Mexico and start levelling cities, then other countries seize the property of rich Americans who are backing that invasion.

And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.

No we don't – you chose to deliberately misrepresent this.

Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.

Nah, false equivalence. I think "we are going to seize the international assets of supporters of a regime engaged in a war we consider illegal" is a pretty fine tool, and really not anywhere close to "we are going to launch an all-out invasion of a relatively functional sovereign democracy".

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#42

Post by ericmay »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

Yes and it always has been. None of these people are actual citizens of these countries in any meaningful way, and Russia is a mafia state where the sanctioned individuals have more or less committed crime in order to gain these assets in the first place, and they are helping someone that the countries seizing assets believe is committing a war crime.

This is more like having a king and princes and princesses and seizing assets of the princes and princesses conducting the war. These aren’t like “oh shucks” rags to riches wealthy everyday Russians.

> Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government?

Sure you can. And Iran or Venezuela or Russia or North Korea can seize their assets in those countries for committing “crimes” as they see fit. Wonder why nobody has assets in those countries?

But this whataboutism also fails because (insert cartoon CEO villain scapegoat) isn’t giving money to Joe Biden to go personally invade Canada. It’s incomparable.

> “Something something Iraq”

First who cares? We’re talking about Russia and Ukraine.

Second yes countries can decide that they don’t like Americans and seize their assets abroad.

> Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.

You haven’t seen anything yet. We’re 100% going to war with Russia or will be engaging them directly unless Putin is deposed and I don’t think that’s going to happen. He wants a war so it’s just a matter of time until he decides to attack resupply missions in Poland directly on Polish soil.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#43

Post by newsclues »

obilgic wrote: post #30
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

People can continue to be productive without meaninglessly adding more digits to their network.

Or maybe others would be highly productive if the current people retire.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#44

Post by this_was_posted »

obilgic wrote: post #30
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#45

Post by baq »

88840-8855 wrote: post #12
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeare…

the worst part about this is, most Russians in the west are basically asylum seekers now. their state went full totalitarian in the last couple weeks. i'm trying hard to make delimit the difference between Russians and Putin, but it's hard to get ordinary people to listen. MSM does not like nuance at all.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#47

Post by refurb »

obilgic wrote: post #30
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

Exactly. We tell Elon Musk "hey buddy, you did amazing with Paypal, but that's enough, we're forcing you to retire."

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#48

Post by scrollaway »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #31
scrollaway wrote: post #19

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, i…

I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom o…

> Where have you been

I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history.

And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down.

Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks.

As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#49

Post by kleene_op »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

> And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.

You're absolutely right in both regards but please do not conflate those two.

I'll weep zero tears over Putin's rich friends not being able to play with their yacht anymore, but common Russians having to leave their home country and suffering from heinous mob mentality outside have my dearest sympathy.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#50

Post by dotancohen »

this_was_posted wrote: post #44
obilgic wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

Then just look at Elon Musk's and Bill Gates' projects. One is weaning us off hydrocarbons, the other is curing disease.
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