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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#21

Post by raverbashing »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> just OK to seize private property of individuals

Yes, it's a war. Deal with it

If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss.

> to this is getting pretty fucking scary

I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#23

Post by stuaxo »

hbbio wrote: post #4

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society.

We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#24

Post by paganel »

koolba wrote: post #3

Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it? Is it the same reason that dissenting opinions can’t be heard because they’re dangerous propaganda?

> Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it

Honestly, I would have thought that the recent nationalisation of Russian oligarchs' assets over much of the Western world would sent thrills down the spines of many, many other wealthy people, no matter their citizenship. Probably it was a shock to them, too, I expect a counter-reaction via media in the coming weeks.

Locke wrote his famous treatises on government especially for cases like this one, i.e. what happens with your property when you fall on the wrong side of the current powers that be? He said that said powers shouldn't confiscate your property, and there are many smart people who have said/written during the last few centuries that that viewpoint stands at the basis of our (Western) civilisation. Interesting times, to say the least.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#25

Post by twoodfin »

hbbio wrote: post #4

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#26

Post by kangda123 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

Thats just not true. The relaxation of hate speech is towards Russian troops only. Not civilians.

Frankly, what kind of communication do you expect from civilians in a kill or get killed situation.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#27

Post by barney54 »

vowelless wrote: post #9

Should the world seize the assets of Silicon Valley billionaires over the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and other actions in MENA? Probably.

Why? Because they are American?

The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#28

Post by paganel »

samhw wrote: post #7
koolba wrote: post #3

Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it? Is it the same reason that dissenting opinions can’t be heard because they’re dangerous propaganda?

This is due process, per the laws of the countries their yachts are in.

The communist nationalisation process after WW2 was also 100% legal in the countries where it was applied.

Later edit: To make things clearer, because I have the impression that people in the West live with the idea that out-here in the former Communist East (from where I'm from) things like nationalisations and all that were done sort of outside the law, hence why doing similar things in the West right now might be ok because it's done under the auspices of the law, I repeat, most of the that stuff was done with the law in hand.

I even wrote/implemented a small personal project [1] based on such a law, the June 1950 nationalisation law. I wanted to see where were located the properties of the Bucharest-based Jewish population that got their properties confiscated (remember, this was after WW2, under a regime that had fought against the Nazis). Of course that the Jews were not implicitly targeted by that law, but they were greatly affected by it (being, on average, a little better-off and more urban compared to the regular Romanian peasant).

[1]http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ (you have to ignore the GMaps warning, I was too lazy to put anything else in place since their API changes some time ago; also, not sure it works on mobile).

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#29

Post by trhway »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

it is a war, and the one started by them. They should be grateful of losing only property while people in Ukraine are losing their lives. They didn't afford due process to those Ukrainians. Actually they don't afford due process to any Ukrainian. What expectations of due process they may reasonably expect for themselves after that? After the war these Putin's top supporters should get punished for the war crimes together with Putin. This is the due process they should get.

Limiting blame only to Putin just doesn't make sense. Putin doesn't press the button launching missiles. All Russians in Russia are responsible for what is happening. Just looks at bacchanalia of "Z" symbol celebration these days across all Russia (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-lette... - The "Z" is the marking on the Russian armor of the western invasion group in Ukraine, the one which is attacking Kiev for example, and that symbol became the symbol of that war in Russia). You wanna get beaten as a dirty traitor by a bunch of Russian passer-by-s - just make some offensive comment on the "Z".

>And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'.

It is applicable only to Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be strange that one can shoot such a soldier, yet wouldn't be able to call for a death of the soldier on FB.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#30

Post by obilgic »

stuaxo wrote: post #23
hbbio wrote: post #4

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

so we force productive people to retire early?

How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

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