Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#101

Post by mistermann » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:15 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #15

noasaservice wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only strengthens my theory that why most of the autistics and neurodivergent people are considered disabled is because of neurotypicals. When a ND isn't precise with their words, expect us to read into context, and then get angry when we don't understand - that's on them, not us.

NTs can either read in to context or willfully ignore it (choose to act as if they haven't noticed), while autistic people always have to act without that information. It is kind of like wheelchairs and ramps - people who can climb stairs are strictly better off than people who can only go up ramps, but a society with ramps isn't any less capable than one where you have to climb a ladder to get to your office.

> NTs can either read in to context or willfully ignore it (choose to act as if they haven't noticed)

This makes some assumptions about the nature of real-time cognition though...it is possible that any given individual can do this for a given scenario, but the likelihood depends on many variables, many likely unknown.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#102

Post by Animats » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:31 AM UTC

Hm. The actual work where the data used was collected is here.[1] (The details are paywalled, unfortunately.) This paper is here.[2]

The first paper, about predicting where eyes will point next, is based on actual data recorded by the experimenters from two monkeys. The authors of that paper report positive but narrow results. They write about simple visual target info persisting for a few seconds. The second paper re-analyzes that data and draws much broader conclusions, less well justified by the data.

No electric fields were actually measured in that work. They're being imputed from voltages from neuron probes and EEG pickups. So the statements about fields are somewhat iffy.

It's recently become possible to image electric fields.[3] NASA work in 2015. A field-effect transistor with an open gate is an electric field sensor, and an array of them is an imager. A linear array was constructed and scanned mechanically to 2D image various objects, including a human. That paper has what is claimed to be the first image of the electric field of a human. Resolution was low, but it works. Might be useful for scanners at checkpoints and such, they claim.

So the technology exists to start to measure such fields directly. With enough interest and money, someone could probably construct an IC with a large array of open gate FETs and the readout circuitry to get an image from them. It's a non-intrusive passive sensor, which is nice for human experimentation. If there's anything going with the brain's electric field at high resolution or high frequency, it should be possible to pick that up. It's not clear how useful this is, but the electronics part looks possible.

[1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-2552/aa5a3e

[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S105381192...

[3] https://sma.nasa.gov/docs/default-source/News-Documents/elec...

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#103

Post by kkylin » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:36 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #102

Hm. The actual work where the data used was collected is here.[1] (The details are paywalled, unfortunately.) This paper is here.[2] The first paper, about predicting where eyes will point next, is based on actual data recorded by the experimenters from two monkeys. The authors of that paper report positive but narrow results. They write about simple visual target info persisting for a few seconds. The second paper r…

Preprint here: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.08.22.457247

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#104

Post by QuantumYeti » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

phaedrus wrote: post #3

hosh wrote: post #2

There was a story I heard about the autistic guy who volunteered for transcranial magnetic stimulation. Those have been known to temporarily shift someone autistic into a consciousness state that is more neurotypical. In his case (and it is the only documented case), it was permanent. He wrote a book about it. His marriage ended because of it (he had been a reliable emotional support for his wife while autistic), but…

This is interesting because I recently read of a theory that clinical depression is actually an altered state of consciousness, like dreaming or being under the influence of psychedelic drugs. It seems to explain a lot about depression as well as posing the question what other things might be an altered state of consciousness. I predict if we're successful in creating general AI and/or artificial consciousness, we'll…

As someone who slipped into depression ~15 years ago and has had limited success pulling out of it, I would definitely consider it to be an altered state of consciousness. I remember what I used to be like before, and how I used to behave, and the relationships people seemed to want to have with me. Even recently, I was able to experience a glimpse of that former life when I got a job and was able to hold it for a few months. I think it definitely is an altered state, and it frustrates me to the verge of (re?)insanity that you can buy alcohol everywhere, but can't get generic SSRIs over the counter. At the moment in the US, you can't get an SSRI prescription without going to a doctor every 6 months to let them look at you for 30 seconds, mispronounce your name, and then declare you ready to continue taking their medicine. And that's if you have insurance. The US medical system is too paternalistic, imo.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#105

Post by jamiek88 » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:48 AM UTC

gryn wrote: post #19

this reminds of a brain fart I had long time ago back when I was taking an EE course about electromagnetic compatibility & interference. how resilient is the brain and it's surrounding casing to outside electromagnetic interference ? can there one day be some jamming tool strong enough to just crash a brain without doing physical damage first ? where it would just brick a human, but a physician examining it would fin…

Well the CIA seem to think there could be some sort of beam weapon perhaps ultrasonic causing strange neuro injuries with no physical contact.

Havana sickness I think they are calling it if you wanna look up more.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#106

Post by rixed » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:54 AM UTC

jotm wrote: post #79

imcoconut wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so confident? It seems a fair number of experts have well justified doubts based on studies of already deployed lower energy radiation. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no... > Citing this large body of research, more than 240 scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on the biologic and health effects of nonionizing electromagnetic fields (EMF) signed the International…

Yeah, it is certainly possible that it affects health. However, since we decided to live with such technology as a society, we'll have to deal with it. People living in cities (or anywhere really) don't complain much about the massive amount of exhaust from cars, which is definitely proven to be bad for everyone's health despite all attempts at reducing it. It's just there, we won't give up cars, so everyone just kin…

It seemed to me we are getting rid of exhaust gases in big cities, via stricter regulations on engine emissions, exhaust gas recirculation, catalytic converters, stop and go systems, lower speed limits, car free areas, electrification, etc, with very visible results.

So the car analogy seems a bad exemple to discourage progress.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#107

Post by MrYellowP » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 8:20 AM UTC

QuantumYeti wrote: post #104

phaedrus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting because I recently read of a theory that clinical depression is actually an altered state of consciousness, like dreaming or being under the influence of psychedelic drugs. It seems to explain a lot about depression as well as posing the question what other things might be an altered state of consciousness. I predict if we're successful in creating general AI and/or artificial consciousness, we'll…

As someone who slipped into depression ~15 years ago and has had limited success pulling out of it, I would definitely consider it to be an altered state of consciousness. I remember what I used to be like before, and how I used to behave, and the relationships people seemed to want to have with me. Even recently, I was able to experience a glimpse of that former life when I got a job and was able to hold it for a fe…

People don't need more drugs to counter depression,

people need a better life so they don't get depressed in the first place.

"but we can't change their lives, so it's better for them to take antidepressants".

No! Nonsense!

People are depressed, because their lives suck for whatever reasons.

When they take antidepressants their lives still suck, but - like a slave! - they just learn to accept it as it is.

When you take a painkiller against pain, the pain and its source don't magically vanish. It's all still there, you just mask it out.

Are you feeling sad? Just take SOMA!

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#108

Post by grandchild » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

MrYellowP wrote: post #107

QuantumYeti wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who slipped into depression ~15 years ago and has had limited success pulling out of it, I would definitely consider it to be an altered state of consciousness. I remember what I used to be like before, and how I used to behave, and the relationships people seemed to want to have with me. Even recently, I was able to experience a glimpse of that former life when I got a job and was able to hold it for a fe…

People don't need more drugs to counter depression, people need a better life so they don't get depressed in the first place. "but we can't change their lives, so it's better for them to take antidepressants". No! Nonsense! People are depressed, because their lives suck for whatever reasons. When they take antidepressants their lives still suck , but - like a slave! - they just learn to accept it as it is. When you t…

I feel this is an overly simplistic view of depression.

I imagine there's a thousand reasons for a state like depression to emerge — some, but not all of them external. I think the Venn diagram of people with depression and people whose "lives suck for whatever reason" is not a single circle.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#109

Post by grandchild » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 9:22 AM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #29

phaedrus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting because I recently read of a theory that clinical depression is actually an altered state of consciousness, like dreaming or being under the influence of psychedelic drugs. It seems to explain a lot about depression as well as posing the question what other things might be an altered state of consciousness. I predict if we're successful in creating general AI and/or artificial consciousness, we'll…

All thoughts are altered states of consciousness. A collection of self reinforcing thoughts that represent an instance of depression are a state of consciousness in the same way that experiencing sun on your skin is a state of consciousness. All is qualia and we move between states of qualia like fish through an ocean.

An ocean with large pockets of powerful currents that are very hard to swim against, to stay in the image. Yes, everything is qualia/sensation/thought, and I get the appeal of the concept of "OMG, by me writing this and you reading it I just literally changed your brain!". But not every state of our brain/consciousness is the same, not every state allows for the same movement of the fish.

There's a higher-level interpretation of what the term "state of consciousness" means to many people. Not a "state of the brain, like a state of a cellular automaton" but instead a section in the incredibly high-dimensional space of possible brain states that greatly facilitates going to other interesting positions, i.e. thoughts or experiences.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#110

Post by QuantumYeti » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

MrYellowP wrote: post #107

QuantumYeti wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who slipped into depression ~15 years ago and has had limited success pulling out of it, I would definitely consider it to be an altered state of consciousness. I remember what I used to be like before, and how I used to behave, and the relationships people seemed to want to have with me. Even recently, I was able to experience a glimpse of that former life when I got a job and was able to hold it for a fe…

People don't need more drugs to counter depression, people need a better life so they don't get depressed in the first place. "but we can't change their lives, so it's better for them to take antidepressants". No! Nonsense! People are depressed, because their lives suck for whatever reasons. When they take antidepressants their lives still suck , but - like a slave! - they just learn to accept it as it is. When you t…

> People need a better life so they don't get depressed in the first place.

You know, I think I actually agree with you on that point, despite the rest of your post. I won't address the rest of what you said, because it'd just get nasty.

The problem, in my opinion, can be described by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In the US (probably elsewhere too, just speaking for myself), the layer below physiological needs, like clean air, shelter, clothing, etc, is: "Get a job." Without that, you're dead.