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Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

picower.mit.edu

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Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#91
The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory.

Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely consciousness or long-term memory are maintained by e-fields generated in the brain, or that they require continuous electrical activity. Stark evidence against it come from ischemia studies. Ischemia usually accompanies serious underlying issues, so more controlled examples are easier to reason about: surgeons may use deep hypothermic circulatory arrest as protection for the brain in procedures with extended ischemia time requirements. In these cases, achieving electrocerebral silence (flat EEG) is one of the checklist items for the procedure. Clinical cases are worth reviewing for any hypothesis that suggests that long-term memory depends on continuous electrical activity* of neurons in the brain.

Since the events of ischemia, brain flatlining, and brain death are so closely linked in time, it's easy to conflate them. After a cold stop+start, the brain doesn't immediately jump back to normal function--there are a variety of processes that are worth studying better to get back to normal brain waves and brain function. Ischemia-related damage is often from a metabolic problems than from a discontinuity of electrical function. The reason for the cooling is to maintain the local energy reserves of the cells--when that is lost, the cells may have too much difficulty getting back to normal when blood is later reintroduced, and that's where you see brain damage or death. This kind of procedure is not without serious risk factors.

* Of course, electrical activity is needed for recall, but the point that I'm making is that the memory is later available for recall even after a period of discontinuity in the EEG.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#92
post #27

Although it is a very interesting paper, and I am by no means qualified to even understand half of it, while reading up representational drift I was much more convinced by another (and a bit more recent) paper portraying the phenomenon as a way for the brain to switch up the physical layout of the firing neurons in a redundant population without altering the output. All that possibly for biological reasons (ie dead n…

I'm not sure exactly what you believe, but since you're talking about information storage, can I ask if you mean for working memory or for long-term memory? For long-term memory, the storage is durable and mostly static, while recall is dynamic (and may even affect the storage after further consolidation). For working memory, I imagine it's a pretty dynamic process for both storage and recall. The top-level link seems to only be about working memory, so the title of the HN post should probably be changed to avoid confusion.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#93
post #80

If this is correct, might it explain how and why electroconvulsive therapy works and how it can lead to the loss of memory. Presumably it would completely disrupt the stable memory field, even if it left the physical structures intact. The brain woul be reconstructing the field from first principles.

Whether or not this is true, ECT memory loss is not hard to believe. I don't mean that the mechanism is obvious (it isn't), but only that the result is not very surprising. Neurons communicate via electric signals. There are multiple reasonnable ways to implement a memory based on that substrate, but the interface is almost certainly going to be through axons. There must be a way, whatever it may be, to query and to…

There was a pretty fun Radiolab episode (https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/episodes/91569...) that suggested that the process of recall changes memories, and that they are susceptible to change while the memory is being recalled. I'm sure ECT is disruptive in many ways, including just through damage and toxicity to the cells. But, in your fuzzing idea--a hypothesis might be that recall is triggered, and while the memory is susceptible, it's disrupted permanently. Another possibility is that the memory is still there, but the proper mapping to it is lost. Reality is probably a combination of many factors.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#94
post #58
post #2

There was a story I heard about the autistic guy who volunteered for transcranial magnetic stimulation. Those have been known to temporarily shift someone autistic into a consciousness state that is more neurotypical. In his case (and it is the only documented case), it was permanent. He wrote a book about it. His marriage ended because of it (he had been a reliable emotional support for his wife while autistic), but…

This is scary if true, because it opens up all kinds of doors for external EM fields modifying human cognition doesn’t it?

Robert Becker wrote a book about the em field on the effects of the body, though I don’t think the book talked much about its effect on the mind. He did write the book to raise the flag about the unintended consequence of electrifying everything.

If consciousness is not exclusive to neurons, then how much affect does the consciousness have on shaping the body … and how much does the body shape the mind?

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so confident? It seems a fair number of experts have well justified doubts based on studies of already deployed lower energy radiation. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no... > Citing this large body of research, more than 240 scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on the biologic and health effects of nonionizing electromagnetic fields (EMF) signed the International…

Yeah, it is certainly possible that it affects health. However, since we decided to live with such technology as a society, we'll have to deal with it. People living in cities (or anywhere really) don't complain much about the massive amount of exhaust from cars, which is definitely proven to be bad for everyone's health despite all attempts at reducing it. It's just there, we won't give up cars, so everyone just kin…

Well, we didn’t complain about 70 years of leaded gasoline exhaust either … but maybe our society had collectively lost the capability to understand the damage.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#96
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could say a lot more about this, but this would slip into what people would consider as woo. So without treading there, I am just going to say, I think this field-effect of neurons will lead to discoveries about field-effect of all cells, not just neurons; that consciousness is not exclusive to neurons; and how acupuncture (at a mechanical level) might work.

Do you have any sources to recommend if I wanted to learn more about this thought?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29223641

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#97

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

> The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two.

Please note, this is the press release headline and sub-headline:

“Neurons are fickle. Electric fields are more reliable for information.”

“A new study suggests that electric fields may represent information held in working memory, allowing the brain to overcome “representational drift,” or the inconsistent participation of individual neurons”

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're looking in the wrong place, probably. I'd start in the gut, considering the cells are quite similar.

People with gut cancer get their gut removed regularly, sometimes a big chunk of the guts. Do they lose their memories?

Maybe. There was a guy who induced aphantasia after a stem cell transplant and one of the hypothesis is the loss of gut bacteria via antibiotics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8143657/

I reversed a life-long case of Prosopagnosia after doing some n-of-1 experiments with replenishing my gut bacteria, so it seems plausible to me that losing intestines could impact this.

I also have a friend had her intestines removed due to Crohn's disease. She had an infection from the surgery that put her in a coma she woke up unable to picture things in her head. Hard to say what caused it.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#99

The headline says working memory, not long-term episodic memory, but the comments (and headline) here don't seem to distinguish between the two. We can disrupt short term memories in a variety of ways. When memories consolidate, they move to different structures. We can hold a lot more information in long-term memories than in working memory. Because I hear this hypothesis come up from time to time--it's unlikely con…

If it were electric fields, wouldn't we also expect the extreme EM fields generated by MRI machines, or even strong permanent magnets held near someone's skull to have some effect on memory?

A nearby lightning strike or overhead power line should also have some effect.

It would be quite amazing if the body were able to neutralize/counter such strong external electric fields.

Re: Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in memory: study

#100
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite a good deal of literature out there suggesting that acupuncture operates via electricity, FWIW.

Can you provide any references to said literature?

Huberman talks about acupuncture in this episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmhsWAqP_0Y&t=4647s

I don't recall specific literature, but that might provide some names or searches to make.

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