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25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

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Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#71

Post by suking »

scottkduncan wrote: post #63
bane wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To me, the financial industry looks like every other bubble right before the pop with everyone trying to pile in to the money machine, but any close examination of the machine reveals an empty ruse." And I don't think I've ever heard a kind word about management consultants. A field dominated by 20 somethings with 0 professional work experience brought in to tell executives and managers of highly successful multi-mi…

I think there's another reason related to your a) and b) why companies hire management consultants, particularly in less dire corporate situations than you describe above. I think a lot of management consultants' work comes from boards or division managers who have a difficult decision they know they want to make (fire workers, spin off less successful business units), but need an "impartial" "expert" to agree with t…

That is 1 reason - another reason is because competitor XYZ might have hired them a few years ago and they can get some inside info. They might say they don't share anything, but if Person A worked for a past company and he now is consulting for you - don't you think he'll spill some secrets...

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#72

Post by michaelochurch »

There's a lot that can be said about this, so I'm just going to focus on what I think is the nub of the disconnect here.

Studying philosophy, art, history, religion, science and the classics (that is, education as opposed to mere training) is supposed to bring people in touch with their humanity and, more relevantly, their mortality-- the fact that we'll all die and that it can happen at any time.

The first 5 to 15+ years in the professional and corporate life (and not just in the demonized investment banks and consulting firms, because this is a common trait of human organizations and every bit as entrenched in academia and mainstream corporations) are about denying said mortality. You're expected to focus on a far-off distant future that may never come and, in the mean time, "pay your dues"-- that is, work in conditions that no one would accept unless harboring a delusion of infinite time, a misguided belief that the present doesn't matter because the future will be flush with riches, prestige, and make all those present-time sacrifices irrelevant.

I don't support war or conscription in general, but it's no coincidence that the "yuppie" phenomenon was born after the abolition of The Draft. Once kids lost awareness of death (not that it exists, but that it will happen to them at an inconvenient time; it's always "inconvenient") they could treat their own time as limitless and without value, so they relaxed their demands for autonomy, rewarding work, and mentorship in exchange for a 10 or 20 percent bump in immediate prosperity.

I would call this a failure of the educational system, but I don't think it is. We have a deeply deluded culture focused on the transient and on seduction and I don't think (even if individual professors do a great job) this is something that schools can fix.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#73

Post by Hyena »

mchusma wrote: post #70
Hyena wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty or inconvenience of a job does not really imply additional remuneration. If it did, migrant farmworkers would probably be the richest people in the world.

The difficulty does not, but pay is only one form of compensation. Those with the most opportunity have many good options, some with more pay, and some with better work conditions. in other words, if you need a smart person you need to compel them to work for you.

Yes, but now you're making the skeptic's point: management consulting works by using the shock-and-awe of lots of Ivy League degrees to provide cover for management. In other words, a complete waste of shareholder money and employee time.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#75

Post by crazygringo »

jgfoot wrote: post #50

A revealing part of the article comes when Yale Prof. Hicks says that, rather than develop skills with consulting firms, "There are a half-dozen more life-affirming ways you can acquire those same skills, including taking a class at night at a junior college while you do something more interesting." This is not a good advertisement for Yale. In addition to costing a lot of money, Yale costs four years of lifetime. Ye…

Yale is, by design, a non-professional school (for undergraduates). Its philosophy is that it focuses entirely on a liberal arts education to make you a better, more-informed, deeper human being. (In fact, it won't even calculate your GPA for you.)

Because of this, it does not have business classes. You cannot major in communications or public relations. It doesn't have an official pre-med program. The idea is, you've got the rest of your life to do all that.

Whether you think this is a smart philosophy, of course, depends on your point of view.

And of course, after you graduate from undergrad, then you can try Yale's graduate programs, among which you'll find some of the top professional schools in the country.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#76

Post by crazygringo »

samgro wrote: post #20
peterzakin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha. I don't think it's that high. But I do think it's higher than 25%.

This isn't an apples to apples comparison, but according to the Prince, 41.5% of the graduating seniors my year (2008) "who had accepted full-time employment offers by graduation" were employed in the "financial sector" ( http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/03/08/25465/ ). Not an apples to apples comparison with the Yale article, but my reaction is still surprised that the number is that small at Yale.

Yale and Princeton student cultures could not be more different. Yale attracts a more ultra-liberal, save-the-world student body, whereas Princeton attracts a more ultra-conservative, make-the-money student body.

It doesn't suprise me that the original posted article came out of the Yale's student newspaper, instead of a Princeton one.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#77

Post by jessriedel »

jbooth wrote: post #56
kapilkale wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so rarely the case. At my firm the percentage of people in consulting who wanted to be artists, public servants, writers, or filmmakers is less than 10%. The way you've described it makes it sound like all these Yalie beatniks are selling out for the prospect of a stable paycheck. Many of my colleagues weren't lifelong consultants, but they were lifelong businesspeople. The ones who left went on to start tech…

Well, whatever their passions were, writing powerpoint decks in order to justify internal power moves at another company, because someone wanted something done so they hired you to provide post hoc rationalization for it.. I mean, really? This is what we're doing with "the best and the brightest"? Expert MS Office users?

Again: if so, this is a problem with the consulting market, not Yale. You're not going to change anything by pleading with Yale grads to turn down lots of money.

Much more interesting is the argument that consulting, though productive, takes advantage of college student's fear of risk in order to win out over riskier options which are actually in the students best interest. (I'm skeptical.) Then, indeed, it would be beneficial to talk to these students about the problem.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#78

Post by ryanlchan »

bane wrote: post #59

I might point out, after reading many of the comments here, that people who are currently or have done management consulting in the past all say essentially the same thing about the experience -- it was great for them, they saw lots of stuff, traveled a bit, made some money. But none of them say they actually helped a single employee of a single organization actually accomplish anything in particular for all the fees…

Strategy consultants are extremely highly paid, extremely specialized temp workers. We only create as much value as the client asks us to get.

It's a time-money play. We do the work that creating or scaling a corporate strategy group would do if you had the 6-12 months to go out, hire a team, train them together, create the necessary links to the organization, and go do the work. With consultants, you can hire and fire us at any time, no severance, pensions, or hard feelings. Once our work's done, we leave.

I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. But zero net contributor it isn't.

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#79

Post by jbooth »

jessriedel wrote: post #77
jbooth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, whatever their passions were, writing powerpoint decks in order to justify internal power moves at another company, because someone wanted something done so they hired you to provide post hoc rationalization for it.. I mean, really? This is what we're doing with "the best and the brightest"? Expert MS Office users?

Again: if so, this is a problem with the consulting market, not Yale. You're not going to change anything by pleading with Yale grads to turn down lots of money. Much more interesting is the argument that consulting, though productive, takes advantage of college student's fear of risk in order to win out over riskier options which are actually in the students best interest. (I'm skeptical.) Then, indeed, it would be…

I wasn't criticizing anything so specific as either Yale, students, or a particular consulting firm. Everyone's going to follow the incentives.

But why are the local incentives so stupid in the larger view?

Re: 25% of Yale goes to Consulting, Finance

#80

Post by peterzakin »

crazygringo wrote: post #76
samgro wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't an apples to apples comparison, but according to the Prince, 41.5% of the graduating seniors my year (2008) "who had accepted full-time employment offers by graduation" were employed in the "financial sector" ( http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/03/08/25465/ ). Not an apples to apples comparison with the Yale article, but my reaction is still surprised that the number is that small at Yale.

Yale and Princeton student cultures could not be more different. Yale attracts a more ultra-liberal, save-the-world student body, whereas Princeton attracts a more ultra-conservative, make-the-money student body. It doesn't suprise me that the original posted article came out of the Yale's student newspaper, instead of a Princeton one.

I think you're stereotyping too strongly here. The difference in character between Princeton and Yale is marginal.
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