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In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

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Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#121

Post by PedroBatista »

sofixa wrote: post #118
PedroBatista wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chaos was inevitable, it happens ever time and in every society, specially after 70 years of one brutal regime. I was expecting even worse ( and it was bad ). And after a certain period of suffering and unrest, people just want "stability" and that's when any well-intention-ed politician in a country with 5min of democracy experience don't stand a change against the quintessential competent strongman savior of th…

Most of the Warsaw pact are doing much better ( in terms of democratic and economic development ) than most of the ex-Soviet republics, even though they came through a similar path. So it wasn't inevitable.

All of them gone through a period of instability and serious economic hardship in the first years, that was my point. Then eventually they found the path and that path is not inevitable if they let themselves get caught by a “glorious savior”, then its inevitable they’ll end in yet another autocracy.

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#122

Post by Viliam1234 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #110
quietthrow wrote: post #78

I sympathize with the tragic situation in both these countries for the common person. My curiousness arising out of this situation is forced me to try to understand it and it’s roots. What I found definitely changed my perspective on what to expect out of this. I went in thinking this is a pivotal moment and unsure what the future looks like. I came out sad that this is not a one off thing for the people of this land…

Russians generally support its countries’ imperialist activity. They supported the USSR, Afghan war (until it went terribly wrong), Chechen wars, war against Georgia, first land grab against Ukraine, and now, it seems, this one. You can always argue, correctly, that it’s hard to know what’s going on in an autocratic country, but many of these polls were un controversial and simply not stating support for eg the annex…

> I don’t know how you can break this cycle without making Russians understand how badly they are hurting others.

I am pretty sure some of them understand, but if they try to tell their neighbors, they spend the next 15 years in prison.

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#123

Post by Viliam1234 »

sofixa wrote: post #118
PedroBatista wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chaos was inevitable, it happens ever time and in every society, specially after 70 years of one brutal regime. I was expecting even worse ( and it was bad ). And after a certain period of suffering and unrest, people just want "stability" and that's when any well-intention-ed politician in a country with 5min of democracy experience don't stand a change against the quintessential competent strongman savior of th…

Most of the Warsaw pact are doing much better ( in terms of democratic and economic development ) than most of the ex-Soviet republics, even though they came through a similar path. So it wasn't inevitable.

The former Warsaw Pact members got fewer decades of socialism, and they did not experience most of Stalinism; their experience was less brutal.

Being geographically closer to the West probably also made a difference; after the fall of socialism, more people could take a trip across the iron curtain and observe how things worked on the other side.

Maybe these days, people living in Russia should be invited to visit Europe and see how people live there. Like, maybe as a part of "propaganda budget", EU should offer one month of fully paid vacation here to every citizen of Russia. To see that we are actually not a hellhole full of Nazis; to see how even the life standards in Eastern Europe are these days closer to the West than to Russia; to understand that they could do even better (because they could do whatever Eastern Europe did, plus they would still have the oil).

Generally, people should travel more, see the world more. So that they can later return to their country and ask: "How is it possible that other countries have X, but here at home we say that it is impossible?" (And this applies to everyone. Like, Americans would probably also benefit from seeing that universal healthcare is possible and actually considered normal in some places.)

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#124

Post by throw_5202 »

sofixa wrote: post #119
_8j50 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the blunder part but only if he ends up failing to control ukraine. So long as he succeeds there, the russian people will lose big time but Putin will do just fine. But if he loses, I don't think he will leave peacefully but he will leave.

There's absolutely no way Russia could occupy Ukraine for a prolonged period of time. Ukrainian morale and national unity are very high, and as was seen time and again ( Spain against Napoleon, Afghanistan against everyone, Yugoslav partisans against the Nazis) a determined population is impossible to control by a foreign occupier regardless of its strength.

There a way, unfortunately. Putin: 1. has no regard for human lives (including lives of Russian citizens) 2. is great admirer of Joseph Stalin.

His current plan likely: 1. destroy Ukrainian military and establish control over all major cities, roads and borders (russian losses to achieve this goal is no-brainier for him) 2. starve population (repeat Holodomor [1]) 3. sent millions to prison camps.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#125

Post by npteljes »

nevermindiguess wrote: post #97
tartoran wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, some Russians have my utmost respect for putting up and being vocal about that brutal regime they’re under. I think it toughens you up after some point but from my outsider perspective I would be simply terrified to speak up.

It’s not a brutal regime. That’s what the media wants you to believe. Have you lived there and been treated brutally? The US is a brutal regime. Check the incarceration rates.

Why not both? Checking out one data point, the US is a shade lighter, but they're both in the negative.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/human-rights-protection

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#126

Post by older »

emptyparadise wrote: post #103
older wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's about 27% of them: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

I wonder how truthful such polls are in Russia. I've seen people use these numbers to claim that people in the country support the war, as if anti-war crackdowns don't have any chilling effects on poll responses.

Levada center is the most respected such organization in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levada_Center

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#127

Post by older »

emptyparadise wrote: post #103
older wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's about 27% of them: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

I wonder how truthful such polls are in Russia. I've seen people use these numbers to claim that people in the country support the war, as if anti-war crackdowns don't have any chilling effects on poll responses.

BTW, there are more people protesting Russian invasion in occupied Ukrainian cities, at gunpoint, than there are people protesting the war in Moscow. Here's from Kherson today: https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1502983453452734468

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#128

Post by jquery »

aeternum wrote: post #96
jquery wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the West is to blame for Putin’s irrationality now? What kind of a double-standard is that? How can we possibly negotiate rationally with a madman? Should we have just given him anything he said he wanted? Of course not. It was never about NATO, that was just a fig leaf to people with terminal “both sides” mentality. This has always been sold to Russia has returning to its rightful place as a glorious empire. That…

Putin seems quite rational in the interviews I've seen. A much more rational clear-thinker in fact than the last couple US presidents. I think it is fair to call him a power-hungry, aggressive, ruthless authoritarian. Even if NATO is just a fig leaf, why give it to him? Why give him the chess piece that makes it easier to justify this war? One of the great things about a liberal democracy is that we can openly critic…

There’s nothing rational about his Ukraine invasion. Russian gains absolutely bubkis from this, and NATO has become stronger than ever. From what perspective was the invasion rational? Elites in Russia are in absolute disbelief. Putin lost all his cards the minute he actually invaded. So much for being a rational player.

It’s great to be skeptical of our government. It’s not so great to repeat kremlin talking points nearly verbatim.

Re: In Moscow, McDonald's packs up, radio falls silent and the brain drain begins

#129

Post by kizer »

xeromal wrote: post #60
smoyer wrote: post #2

"Has become a mall society" - And the US has spent the last 30 years abandoning or malls. When I was a teenager it was definitely the place to hang out on weekends!

It's funny you say that because in Los Angeles, mall culture is MASSIVE. Malls aren't stagnant. They are high-end and a lot of fun. Kids go there to hang out and adults go there to shop. I love it and it's sad it didn't take in other areas.

They're definitely still thriving in bigger cities. It's the smaller ones like mine (~100k) where the business is no longer viable.
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