Live data from Hacker News

Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

reuters.com

471–480 of 632 posts

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if I have batteries, why should I charge them with expensive nuclear energy when I can charge them with cheap renewables? The nuclear plant will be forced to compete with those renewables for this market, which will limit what it can earn with the otherwise curtailed output. This is not as bad as losing it entirely, or even paying for someone to take it, but it's still going to be a net negative for the plant'…

Do you have sufficient battery capacity to power your grid through a 90th percentile worst case scenario solar outage? 95th? 99th? How long can it go without running coal and gas? Nuclear works when you want it to. Solar and wind work when they want to. That's a very big difference when you're producing the electricity people rely on to live their daily lives.

It's a very common mistake to think that batteries are to be used to get to a 100% renewable grid.

Hydrogen can be much cheaper for (say) the last 10%, because (1) hydrogen has very low capital cost per unit of storage capacity, and (2) the efficiency hit of going through hydrogen vs. batteries is less important when it's just 10% of the total.

Think of batteries and hydrogen as analogous to cache memory and main memory in a computer. They have different performance and economic characteristics and compensate for each others weak points.

To see this in operation, go to https://model.energy/ and try turning hydrogen off and on in the settings. If you simulate for Germany, for example, turning off hydrogen can double the cost of achieving a certain level of constant grid power. Hydrogen can be particularly valuable for places with large seasonal variation or lots of wind (which has a long timescale component in how it varies.)

I will add that China is already selling electrolysers for < $300/kW, less than half that simulation's 2030 cost assumption.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#472
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grid solar is statistically significantly safer than Nuclear. Climbing on rooftops can be dangerous, but solar is much better in a dessert than on top of a roof. Nuclear takes longer, is more expensive, has lower ROI, and higher risks. Solar has a lower capacity factor, but having 1/3 the availability at 1/15th the cost is a net win. Especially as we need vastly more power in the daytime and idling Nuclear is really…

Nuclear is over 4x safer than solar [1]. As far as "not having the time", we'd still be using natural gas to accommodate wind and solar's intermittency unless some breakthrough in storage technology happens. Batteries are mostly going to go to vehicles, not grid scale plants. Other storage solutions like thermal batteries, compressed air, or giant flywheels remain in the prototyping phase and aren't even proven to be…

Your looking at “Rooftop solar” not grid solar.

Which is misleading in several ways, both because it ignores the majority of solar power and ignores how safe that power will be over time.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was in the environment already in the same sense the uranium in coal was also in the environment already. Maybe the problem is the uranium mine tailings are safely off in some poor country, not in the US where the coal ash would be?

They're in the US: https://www.energy.gov/em/moab-uranium-mill-tailings-remedia...

Most (99% as of 2018) uranium production is outside the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_p...

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#474
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He needs to pass through NATO forces and successfully prove the nuclear deterence wrong before you need to start worrying about that.

Didn't he already capture Zaporizhzhia?

That isn't on NATO territory. (Alack and alas.)

But yeah, neither are the Swedish river valleys (so far).

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#475

What I find incredible is: Once this fully ramps up, this one power plant is expected to satisfy 14% of the entire country's electricity needs. 7 of these could power an entire country, 24/7.

A reactor cannot run 100% of the time, as it has to be periodically inspected, refueled...

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since solar panels can go to zero output onto the grid instantly, this is just a matter of improper design (of the equipment, or of the regulatory regime.) In any case, the cost/kWh from nuclear is computed assuming it's running flat out (except for refueling outages). Reduce that generation and the levelized cost increases. It's already very much higher than renewables; curtailing nuclear output would make that disc…

Granted, the cost for solar and wind fail to account for the cost of storage to accommodate their intermittency. If your country has hydroelectric dams, then that works. But for the rest that don't have the right geography for hydro, they burn fossil fuels. Nuclear provides a path for decarbonization. Solar and wind do not, until a massive breakthrough in energy storage is invented. And nobody knows when that will ha…

Spreading out (geographically) considerably reduces the challenge: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-...

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like we could solve this problem for for nuclear the same way we look to solve problems for renewables: storage.

Isn’t that what the EVs could be? There is also pumped storage, but it requires lots of land, water, and elevation differences (the latter I assume being the issue in Finland).

Pumped storage needs a lot of water to start but can then just cycle the water between reservoirs. Some will be lost by evaporation, but that loss isn't that high.

I once compared a proposed pumped hydro system in Arizona near Phoenix vs. the water evaporated by the Palos Verde nuclear generating station. Per unit of levelized power output, the pumped hydro system used at least an order of magnitude less water than the nuclear plant.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#478
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By population that's one reactor of this scale per million people. To replace all other sources of electricity, 8 thousand such reactors would feed the current world's population. We'd need just shy of 500 more to keep up with population growth by 2030 - or at least 500 new reactors globally per decade. (edit - assuming everyone uses the same amount of power globally as the average person in Finland which - why shoul…

Right. But remember, not all forms of green energy generation are equal. Wind and solar need some dispatchable source as a backup. Hydro works, if you have it. But it's geographically limited. Gas is the typical backup source, but that emits carbon. Nuclear, as it stands, is the only solution to decarbonizing the energy grid for much of the world. Until some breakthrough in energy storage transpires, or fusion become…

Even nuclear needs fossil-fuel backup, as building enough reactors to cope with peak demand would be way, way too expensive.

Even a massively-nuclearized France produces 7% to 12% of its gridpower thanks to fossil-fuel plants.

French official historical data: https://www.statistiques.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/editi...

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're in the US: https://www.energy.gov/em/moab-uranium-mill-tailings-remedia...

Most (99% as of 2018) uranium production is outside the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_p...

Very recently: U.S. utilities push White House not to sanction Russian uranium, see https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-us-utiliti...

Moreover the more we obtain uranium (prospecting, mining, milling...), the more we add to the associated carbon footprint. Therefore a sustained growth of installed nuclear capacity will lead us to exploit mines at always lowering ore grades => more emissions.

Scientific studies are clear: M. Lenzen ("between 10 and 130 g CO2-e/kWhel, with an average of 65 g") and E. Warner et G. Heath ("9 to 110 g CO‐eq/kWh by 2050")...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222817608_Life_cycl...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2051332

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a question of temperature difference. Cooling a house from 40° to 20° uses approximately the same energy as heating it from 0° to 20°. But it gets much colder than 0° C in Finland, while it is very rare to have temperatures above 45° C anywhere in the world.

It's not just that. To make something colder using a heat pump, you must heat up something else by the equivalent amount. Actually more, because of losses. Whereas making something warmer can be done without a heat pump, by releasing stored chemical energy, at nearly no losses.

Heating something with chemical energy by combustion (for example) has a large second law loss -- there's a large increase in entropy in combustion, and in transmitting the high grade heat to the low temperature of the building being heated. Because of these avoidable entropy sources, it's possible to be smarter, for example to use a gas-fired heat pump to achieve a COP of > 1.
Post reply on HN