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Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

bleepingcomputer.com

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Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#51
post #3

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

Russia generally acts rationally. It's just that the assumptions and axioms on top of which rationality is applied is different from the West and ― apparently ― not uncommonly delusional. This made it very hard for the West to believe what Russia was saying for years about Ukraine, for example.

Further, the explanations seem to differ whether they're addressed to Russians or to other countries. Russia's own population tends to get what they want to hear (which we often consider bizarre), and what the West gets doesn't matter much what (because the West has already proven they don't understand Russia even on the big things so why not lie about military training near Ukrainian border as well just to avoid any extra yet futile discourse?)

With delusions in the case of Ukraine I refer to the idea that Ukraine never was a real country and it has belonged to Russia all the time. This falls in line with the worldview of the ex-KGB grandpas from the Soviet era but there's a notable difference they don't seem to accept. Back in the Soviet times USSR had the (fire)power to keep their member states in line and practically own the local governments. There was nowhere to go and it wasn't until the USSR was disbanded that the small Eastern European countries could run away. And run away they did. But Ukraine and Belarus are so close to Russia that it can be easy to think of them as extensions of Russia if you assume you can retain control over the countries, both politically and ultimately militarily. But Russia is much weaker than USSR. Russia have Belarus because, to my understanding, their president basically sold his country to Russia to personally remain in "power" but Ukraine has been looking to West much more than to Mother Russia. And they overruled their Russian leaning president and replaced him with one who's much more open to the West. Here's where I think the delusion comes to play.

Russia somehow thought it would be a simple matter to put Ukraine back in line to avoid them drifting too far into West. Like a father who had no trouble beating his son when he was a kid, the son is now a young adult and the father is much older and weaker, and it's necessary to realize the change. So far, Russia seems to be stuck with the idea that they can maintain control in Ukraine, even after a war. But Russia doesn't seem to be in any position to boss their neighbours around like USSR could.

Even if I ultimately believe that what Russia wanted was Crimea with their old naval city and a land route over there I think they figured why not just go for the whole Ukraine while they're at it, and for once reset the country with a government that makes things easier for Russia in the future. The old USSR could've done that but Russia can't, yet Russia acts as if they're still operating like in the times of USSR. To achieve a "reset" like that you need citizens who agree with you or who are so oppressed that they won't revolt. Russia has neither.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#52
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

> Evaluation of Russia by Finnish Intelligence Colonel I can't take this talk seriously. it's just a bunch of history bits used to explain and reinforce stereotypes about Russians. "Russians like strong leaders" because Russia was once invaded by mongols who also had strong leaders. Russians always think the leader is infallible because he gets his power from God. Then almost in the next sentence he says Russians hat…

Reality shatters your point really quickly, it's even mentioned in the lecture (suggesting you didn't watch it): Russians have literally had 8 years of democracy in the past 600+ years, otherwise it's always been an autocracy.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS jamming is not a secret technology, it’s something that you can expect in a war zone and it’s a technology you can buy on aliexpress. GPS is actually a couple of different signals, and the general public gets the shitty one. The military has some additional protections and better receivers.

> The military has some additional protections Feel this is somewhat an understatement, it's cryptographically signed and encrypted, as far as protection goes it's wandering onto an active battlefield naked vs being in a modern tank.

The newer satellites, of which 5 are in orbit, also have a directional antenna with which they will be able to boost the signal strength 20 dB (100 * power), using a new military M-code that no longer needs the other signals to lock on. The signal is sent both over the wide area and the spot beam antenna. Older satellites will only sent it over a wide area antenna. As far as I understand, this is not operational yet, but is planned for this year.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#54
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be how the allies felt in 1939 wondering what Germany’s master plan could possibly have been. Of course, they couldn’t have foreseen Hitler being a bumbling buffoon all along.

Yeah, but Hitler had the Wehrmacht and all the competence there. Putin only has… whoever is responsible for that megaconvoy stalled for a week, in uncontrolled airspace.

[deleted]

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#55
post #21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched that evaluation yesterday and I think it is spot on and I second your recommendation. Many western officials (as most people) seem to be unable to put themselves into this different environment and framework of values. Knowing a lot about a country helps, but judging them by the values you'd have doesn't help you a bit. Edit: Take the below with a grain of salt, this is one personal experience which can/sho…

I've only lived in 3 countries and all I have learned is that some people are good/nice/polite and some people are bad/ugly/rude regardelss of their nationality, religion or culture.

In man's search for meaning the author draws the same conclusion, describing Jewish prisoners who would cheat their fellow inmates for a priveledged position, and Nazi soldiers, who were also a bit hungry, because food was scarce, sneaking food to give to prisoners of the labor camps.

"There are two races of men in this world - the decent man and the indecent man."

-Viktor Frankl, 'Man's Search for Meaning'

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#56

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

GPS jamming is not a secret technology, it’s something that you can expect in a war zone and it’s a technology you can buy on aliexpress. GPS is actually a couple of different signals, and the general public gets the shitty one. The military has some additional protections and better receivers.

GPS jammers are also used by truckers, rental car drivers, etc., and they have stopped airplanes before:

https://www.cnet.com/culture/truck-driver-has-gps-jammer-acc...

It's also something air defense teams would use to try to redirect missles (make them miss their mark because they have to rely on less effective navigation matters)

On the other hand, radio transmission is relatively easy to locate, and ham radio operators do it for fun ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting ) ... so it should't be that hard to find a source.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#57
post #21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched that evaluation yesterday and I think it is spot on and I second your recommendation. Many western officials (as most people) seem to be unable to put themselves into this different environment and framework of values. Knowing a lot about a country helps, but judging them by the values you'd have doesn't help you a bit. Edit: Take the below with a grain of salt, this is one personal experience which can/sho…

I've only lived in 3 countries and all I have learned is that some people are good/nice/polite and some people are bad/ugly/rude regardelss of their nationality, religion or culture.

[deleted]

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#58
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but the US basically can't use that mode anymore - the widespread use of GPS guided munitions which do not have the military grade receivers means the US basically doesn't enable the signal degradation mode ever - it harms their own force more then helping any counter-force.

You're talking about SA (Selective Availability) but I think the parent comment is referring to the "fine" signal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals#Precision_code

Or more likely the M-code which is the upgraded version of the P(Y) code.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#59

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

In all honesty, we don't know anything about anything. Did the jamming really happen, did Russia do it, etc? There are in fact reasons why anti-Russian countries would undertake this themselves, or even just make up the story. The reasons being that it drums up support for their cause, draws lines that people have to be on one side or another, etc. Ultimately, this is an epistemological question - what do we know? An…

Ham radio operators find RF sources for fun [0], so every time i hear something like this, I get skeptical when governments act as if they can't find out who did or atleast where from (is it coming from a drone in the air, from russia, or from a nearby parking lot [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting

[1] https://www.cnet.com/culture/truck-driver-has-gps-jammer-acc...

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#60
post #21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched that evaluation yesterday and I think it is spot on and I second your recommendation. Many western officials (as most people) seem to be unable to put themselves into this different environment and framework of values. Knowing a lot about a country helps, but judging them by the values you'd have doesn't help you a bit. Edit: Take the below with a grain of salt, this is one personal experience which can/sho…

I've only lived in 3 countries and all I have learned is that some people are good/nice/polite and some people are bad/ugly/rude regardelss of their nationality, religion or culture.

Are you then claiming that 70% of Russians are jerks? Because that's the current approval rate of Putin according to the latest post-war poll by Levada. [1]

[1] https://www.levada.ru/2022/02/04/odobrenie-institutov-polozh...

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