To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries • Hacker News Board

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#11

Post by runamok » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 11:53 PM UTC

Dracophoenix wrote: post #4

>Think about libraries as a concept – the government builds a huge building, buys loads of books from many different authors and allows everyone to just go there and read the books for free or some small fee. False premise: Most librairies in the United States were funded and built by private philanthropy. See: Carnegie Library >"Sometimes you can even take the books to your home!"– Now imagine libraries didn’t exist…

Feels like you are missing the point a bit. The author's point could be about libraries, National Parks, infrastructure like bridges, etc. Many things seem locked in place because of only short term thinking and an unwillingness for short term pain to accomplish long term greater good.

Also Carnegie built the libraries under the provision that local governments would sponsor them going forward. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library Furthermore today libraries have started to adapt by loaning digitally.

I was going to argue street cars were victims of GM but apparently you are mostly right. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_con... and https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/c87l40/i_hav...

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#12

Post by bllguo » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 12:37 AM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #3

To some extent, this is by design. The inaction of liberal western democracies is because it is ambiguous as it what should be done. Yes, this leads to stagnation, but also minimizes massive mistakes. When it becomes clear what needs to be done western democracies can spring into action, such as with, as the author pointed out, the pandemic. Look at Russia - The government, but more specifically Putin, just set the c…

this is overly reductive. the post didnt ask why we aren't building more libraries, it's asking whether we would build them today if they didn't exist.

just like it's not ambiguous that libraries are a net positive, it's not ambiguous whether we need more housing and infrastructure. it's not ambiguous that we should deal with climate change. the inaction is not because of ambiguity, it's because we are unwilling to make short-term sacrifices. it's because there is no shared belief in a greater good.

these are the kinds of decisions that were, for whatever reason, more easily made in the past than now. Look at the New Deal.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#13

Post by systemvoltage » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 1:00 AM UTC

runamok wrote: post #11

Dracophoenix wrote: post #4

>Think about libraries as a concept – the government builds a huge building, buys loads of books from many different authors and allows everyone to just go there and read the books for free or some small fee. False premise: Most librairies in the United States were funded and built by private philanthropy. See: Carnegie Library >"Sometimes you can even take the books to your home!"– Now imagine libraries didn’t exist…

Feels like you are missing the point a bit. The author's point could be about libraries, National Parks, infrastructure like bridges, etc. Many things seem locked in place because of only short term thinking and an unwillingness for short term pain to accomplish long term greater good. Also Carnegie built the libraries under the provision that local governments would sponsor them going forward. https://en.m.wikipedia…

If we find libraries today, with best effort they’ll be built in 4x longer than initially planned and 10x the original budget. After it launches, it would be overrun by inefficiencies to the point of extreme dysfunction.

See DMV.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#14

Post by pjdorrell » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 1:11 AM UTC

The author says:

>"The status quo provides marginal individual benefit to the person making the decision while also causing marginal harm to society as a whole. Doing the right thing doesn’t really provide much tangible short term benefit."

This explains exactly why the majority of people living in a dictatorship don't try very hard to do all the things that they need to do if they want to change their own government.

They need to do things like finding out what is the truth about their government, and telling other people what that truth is. But doing that requires individual self-sacrifice, and most people, most of the time, don't what to do that.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#15

Post by monkeycantype » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 1:19 AM UTC

daniel-s wrote: post #6

A commentary about the shortcomings of western civilization from someone that doesn't understand what makes our civilization a success. All the other civilizations have large powerful governments that intervene in their society. The West's strength comes from the fact that governments are generally restrained, slow, and more power and freedom is given to individuals. Governments are supposed to not be able to get any…

The author frames this from the perspective of a government official making a choice, but I think the useful observation here applies to anybody making a choice - that in periods of stability, the weight of the status quo is an impediment to development when the summed benefit of development is great, but the individual benefit is small, we choose the safe default option over the riskier option that might more honestly reflect our desires. Therefore times of (and after) chaos and catastrophe, are periods of rapid development, because the dead weight of the status quo is diminished. This seems a reasonable thing to say, and seems even more appropriate is you're mechanisms for development are decentralised.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#16

Post by hungryforcodes » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 2:26 AM UTC

yetanother12345 wrote: post #10

In this day and age (at least in my country, a Western Democracy) libraries are not being built, rather closed, or converted to some other uses. And the majority of the vast inventories of books that was once the property of said libraries to keep for posterity's sake has literally been burned, as regulations forbade any kind of recirculation, donation, or sale.

Really? I know this is a US article -- but in Canada as a kid my library used to sell "old books" that were too worn to keep in circulation for a nominal fee. Often sold garage sale style once a year. You could get a $10 book for $0.25 or something. As a kid I'd always make a list of books I read and wanted and wait each year to see if I could find some of them there.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#17

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

eternityforest wrote: post #5

etempleton wrote: post #3

To some extent, this is by design. The inaction of liberal western democracies is because it is ambiguous as it what should be done. Yes, this leads to stagnation, but also minimizes massive mistakes. When it becomes clear what needs to be done western democracies can spring into action, such as with, as the author pointed out, the pandemic. Look at Russia - The government, but more specifically Putin, just set the c…

Getting involved in a war, trade war, or campaign of human rights abuse is a completely separate category from, say, spending 100 billion on some project. You might upset the economy a bit. Maybe someone will call you an idiot. But at any rate you made some jobs and nobody died. Nobody is going to demand sanctions unless someone is being badly abused. We did not spring into action with the pandemic. The only thing we…

It seems fairly unreasonable to suggest that it was a mistake to not or that it would be reasonable to have retrofitted all public buildings to have underfloor (sometimes underground) HVAC ducting added. Think about the typical large slab-on-grade grocery store, Target, Home Depot, Walmart, etc., which is the majority of the places I’ve had to go in the last two years.

Given where we are with COVID, that seems like it would have been a massively wasteful over-reaction.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#18

Post by YATA0 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 2:51 AM UTC

Dracophoenix wrote: post #4

>Think about libraries as a concept – the government builds a huge building, buys loads of books from many different authors and allows everyone to just go there and read the books for free or some small fee. False premise: Most librairies in the United States were funded and built by private philanthropy. See: Carnegie Library >"Sometimes you can even take the books to your home!"– Now imagine libraries didn’t exist…

>Just as we stopped using street cars when buses and cars proved to be more maneuverable and efficient

Ehh... Cars are something like an order of magnitude less efficient than street cars.

Street cars are definitely more efficient than buses, unless the buses are also electrified.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#19

Post by etempleton » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 2:52 AM UTC

bllguo wrote: post #12

etempleton wrote: post #3

To some extent, this is by design. The inaction of liberal western democracies is because it is ambiguous as it what should be done. Yes, this leads to stagnation, but also minimizes massive mistakes. When it becomes clear what needs to be done western democracies can spring into action, such as with, as the author pointed out, the pandemic. Look at Russia - The government, but more specifically Putin, just set the c…

this is overly reductive. the post didnt ask why we aren't building more libraries, it's asking whether we would build them today if they didn't exist. just like it's not ambiguous that libraries are a net positive, it's not ambiguous whether we need more housing and infrastructure. it's not ambiguous that we should deal with climate change. the inaction is not because of ambiguity, it's because we are unwilling to m…

I don’t think the ambiguity is what the challenges are, but how to solve the problems. And yes, we are unwilling to make sacrifices until the effects are already being strongly felt. This is not a good thing, just a reality of democracy not in chaos.

Climate change is a good one. The threat is real. It is at the door, but unfortunately democracies and capitalism will not really react until it is kicking the door down.

Europe avoided the Hitler problem until they invaded. US avoided Hitler and Japan until Pearl Harbor.

I am agreeing with the author. Democracies need to be stoked into action. Other forms of government are more likely to act quickly, but perhaps rashly. That is my point.

Re: To understand what is wrong with the west, think of libraries

#20

Post by riidom » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 2:59 AM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #16

yetanother12345 wrote: post #10

In this day and age (at least in my country, a Western Democracy) libraries are not being built, rather closed, or converted to some other uses. And the majority of the vast inventories of books that was once the property of said libraries to keep for posterity's sake has literally been burned, as regulations forbade any kind of recirculation, donation, or sale.

Really? I know this is a US article -- but in Canada as a kid my library used to sell "old books" that were too worn to keep in circulation for a nominal fee. Often sold garage sale style once a year. You could get a $10 book for $0.25 or something. As a kid I'd always make a list of books I read and wanted and wait each year to see if I could find some of them there.

Have you been tempted to speed up the "worn out"-factor a bit? It's (was) same here in germany, and I thought of doing so as a kid, but then didn't because books shall be treated well :)