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Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

reuters.com

191–200 of 632 posts

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#191
post #184
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forests are a hassle to work in, and add a lot of extra costs. It’s often cheaper and better in many ways to clear the land first if you’re going to do wind there. 1) wind moves faster/freer the higher you are above the ground. the height of the trees moves the ‘ground’ up, without actually moving it up from a foundation or structure perspective. So you spend the money for a 300 ft tower, but only get 200ft of usable…

That sounds like a world of pain. Between the displaced wildlife and released carbon from all those trees, I'd be quite curious if that's even worth it.

It probably isn’t, which is why you don’t see it happen much I imagine.

If the only land they have is trees, it does restrict the options quite a bit. I also forgot to mention, in most climates trees are a hassle this way, they also grow naturally, so even if you clear the land you need to go back and keep it clear every couple years.

Solar has similar drawbacks but worse - you can’t just clear the trees around where you’d put the windmills and roads, you’d need to clear pretty much everywhere including from where they would shade the panels. Which greatly increases the footprint.

Trees can of course be burned for heat and energy, but it’s a time consuming, dangerous, and inefficient process (time/land/manpower) compared to petroleum extraction. It tends to only happen for individual use, at small scale; or when heavily subsidized from taxes on petroleum products.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those EVs are mainly charging at night, where does the extra peak load come from? Or is this just a case of not being able to shut off as much NG/Hydro generation at night (since nuclear can’t really be turned on and off at will)?

Electrification goes beyond cars. Think of how much fuel they need for heat in Finland. Electrification means replacing that fuel with electricity. And many reactors are able to modulate their output, either by absorbing neutrons to slow the chain reaction, or by letting steam bypass the turbines. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/3-ways-nuclear-more-flexi...

Nuclear reactors could modulate their output, but they would take a grievous economic hit if they do so, because most of their costs are fixed, independent of the power setting.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#193
post #4

What I find shockingly absent in this article is any commentary on budget and cost overruns. I'm definitely not anti-nuclear but it stands to reason that a comparison vs other forms of energy would've been wise to consider.

Something like this. The project started in 2000, construction began in 2005 and should have been completed in 2010. Original cost was 3 billion euro but landed on over 10 billion euro. It is the first nuclear reactor in Europe for 15 years so not much working experience or available sub contractors. Apparently, China, South Korea, Japan and Russia can build at a third of the cost and time of that. If nuclear energy…

EDF (France) keeps building nuclear reactors around the world. Not sure whether they are the only EU company active in that market, but I doubt it. Either way, some expertise definitely exists in Europe.

Germany had spectacular delays and overruns for a new airport for Berlin That too doesn't mean Europe forgot how to build airports.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#194

Good job Finland. I respect the opinions of the environmentalists and agree with most of what they say, but until we have something more reliable that can put out power 24/7 year round, we need more new, modern nuclear plants.

It doesn't work in every country but renewables with storage can provide 24/7 power. And it's a fraction of the price of nuclear.

Outside of pumped hydro, storage is very expensive. Would need something like a 15x reduction in storage costs to be competitive with nuclear.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#195
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear based on feeling, not on facts. That's it. By any objective metric, nuclear is by far the best choice for stable base power generation. "But what if it explodes" - and there goes all rationality. Humans will take constant death from coal power plants rather than a minuscule chance of a larger catastrophe in a nuclear plant.

As soon as private industry is funding and running nuclear power including the decommissioning costs, plus selling their energy at market rates (in the UK we have guaranteed the new nuclear plants rates that are higher than the next most expensive generators costs) then I'll believe that. The only way these are remotely economical is when they are funded by the tax payer before the are built, while they run, and afte…

The problem is that markets are supremely bad at building a stable electricity grid. So on one hand wind and solar are getting cheaper per MW, but it doesn't include the effect they have on destabilising both the grid and electricity markets - in fact, solar getting cheaper is probably going to cause a stop on buildout in some places, because the price of solar MW is going to be too low to deal with all the time you're not producing - either due to lack of sun, or due to curtailment.

And we do not really have any storage available - the only systems that are 1) not experimental 2) usable for anything other than frequency stabilisation; are the pumped hydro - and those are geographically limited. At least when it's windy, you can use wind turbines as sinks for stability. Intermittent nature of solar and wind is too intermittent for most industrial sinks.

Meanwhile unpredictable nature of generation from wind and solar push the grid to buildout LNG/petroleum powered gas turbines, due to their very short delay on ramping up/down (IIRC, second only to hydro). So you end up in situation where market approach to electricity is going to prevent decarbonisation, unless you hugely upend what is being bought on the market.

Personally I've been thinking of electricity market paying only for predictable (aka "dispatchable") low-carbon power plants, or at least with huge priority. Solar and Wind could still compete on such market by being paired with storage systems into Virtual Power Plants (something that already exists), and the rest of the generation would be sold on spot market during peaks, or preferably to dedicated sinks like green hydrogen production.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#196
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more nuclear wast does that imply per decade? How many more meltdowns per decade?

Less radioactive waste than coal power plants, and significant less devastation compared to continuing funding wars by buying gas, oil and coal. Energy generation is always a trade off. Right now the world is reacting to the fossil fuel funded wars created by one such trade off. We are also in the middle of causing irreversible climate change, which would cause more damage than any amount of meltdowns or nuclear wast…

> Less radioactive waste than coal power plants

Less radioactive EMISSION during NORMAL OPERATION than coal plants (and I think that ignores radioactivity released in uranium mining). The amount of radioactivity in the spent fuel rods of a nuclear plant is vastly higher than that liberated by a coal plant.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#197
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is wind not possible?

Depends how much area you want to repurpose (note that it includes roads, power lines, and regular tree trimming near those power lines in addition to the turbines themselves), but I'd estimate that with current and projected Finnish population density, this would actually be a realistic option, yes. Now that I think of it, I've never anyone speak of the impact on wildlife, nor seen a wind turbine in a forest (only e…

Finland has a vast and long coast that could be used to build on or offshore farms. There are also wave hydro systems and Finland has many rivers etc that could be used.

Really a choice to go nuclear. Not a necessity.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#198

Good job Finland. I respect the opinions of the environmentalists and agree with most of what they say, but until we have something more reliable that can put out power 24/7 year round, we need more new, modern nuclear plants.

Nuclear won't solve the climate crisis as it's too slow to build.

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#199
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Perth a good third or more of my electricity is keeping the house cool so some of that is going to average out. We don't have saunas but we do have hot water. There's going to be an obvious error of margin either side of my napkin calculations but I think the order of magnitude is in the ballpark.

Cooling a house is more energy efficient than warming one

Isn't it the other way round?

Re: Finland starts much-delayed nuclear plant, brings respite to power market

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more nuclear wast does that imply per decade? How many more meltdowns per decade?

No remotely modern reactor has melted down. Just as you wouldn't factor Amelia Earhart's plane into 2022 air safety prognoses, you shouldn't use Chernobyl reactors for nuclear safety.

I love this reply. We can go even further. If we would approach air safety in such way as Nuclear, then de Havilland DH.106 Comet would be first and last commercial jet.

Nuclear fision reactors safety technology have moved further. There are challenges, but we havent even tried to solve them fully (as we were busy improving gas burning efficiency)

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