Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#691

Post by chmod600 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

skrtskrt wrote: post #622

chmod600 wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure quite what you mean by "rightfully hates them" but it sounds pretty scary to me.

they mean the west has systematically overthrown governments, strip-mined the natural resources, drawn arbitrary country borders, funded extremist groups, bombed civilian populations, gone to war because the extremists they originally backed got too strong, etc etc in the Middle East for generations then if all else fails, they do sanctions, which of course NEVER affect the ruling class, they merely provide the ruler…

In the comment to which I replied, "them" refers to Jewish Israelis ("Everyone else in the region hates them"). Jewish Israelis are Middle Eastern, not part of the West.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#692

Post by this2shallPass » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #666

this2shallPass wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one can convert to the jewish religion Citation needed / this is not correct. It isn't easy, but it is perfectly kosher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Ok, it seems I have been wrong about this as a general statement and liberal (or even most?) jew movements indeed consider it possible. Last time I checked - it seems I read a viewpoint from a rather orthodox rabbi (but his article was the first one, that showed up in google at that time, now I cannot find it anymore), which clearly stated, this is not possible at all, with no exception. The only way, would be to rec…

Maybe that is the case with some small, insular sects of Orthodox Jews? Some of the groups among those often referred to as the "Ultra Orthodox" - I don't know.

It is not aligned with the vast majority of Jewish views about conversion to Judaism.

In general, conversion is possible. As far as I can tell there are even clearly-enough defined requirements.

Jews are not supposed to treat converts any differently than non-converts. People being people, this doesn't always happen, but that is the reasonable principle.

Given that Jews for centuries have not proselytized to non-Jews, many believe you cannot convert to Judaism. You can.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#693

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

sgregnt wrote: post #604

shmatt wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel always had laws favoring jews over non-jews. It would seem shocking but its been like that since day 1. Even now with white blue-eyed christian Ukrainians flooding Israel, they are being left in the airport for days, and interrogated to see who had a Jewish great grandfather and who did not. If you did - thats a free ticket in. If not? Wait a few more days, we might take you in if you put up collateral cash (a…

There are other western countries with very strict immigration policies. I think this applies to Switzerland and to Japan, for example.

Applies to most Western democracies, how's Denmark treating Syrian refugees?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#694

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #190

Here's an interesting exercise: 1. Substitute "Israel's Knesset" for ANY other legislative body anywhere. 2. Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong. 3. See if you like how it feels: "[Legislative body] passes law barring spouses who are [like you] from becoming citizens."

Israel is unique in it's history. There are only few people who have been through what Jews have, maybe none. There are very few countries who are as threatened as Israel is right now (maybe South Korea? it doesn't seem to be as bad there). It was Arafat who said the womb of the Palestinian woman is a weapon to destroy Israel btw.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#695

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

FriedrichN wrote: post #340

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

Obvious diversion from the core issue. Israel must either grant the occupied lands true sovereignty and have their ethnostate or end the occupation and grant them equal civilian rights. Either way they must end their occupation of both Gaza and the West Bank. You start off saying that it's 'disgusting' to call Israel a racist state and then conclude by saying that it was always intended to be a 'Jewish state' and not…

> Israel must either grant the occupied lands true sovereignty and have their ethnostate or end the occupation and grant them equal civilian rights

The last move in that direction - the retreat of Israel from Gaza, brought Hamas to power . Whether there's ever peace doesn't solely depend on Israel. Israel is actually not a very important piece of the puzzle imo, most Israelis know very well peace is in their best interest. There's just not many buyers on the other side.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#696

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

minusSeven wrote: post #569

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

Was this even an argument? it felt more like "We should have a Jewish state because we can and there nothing anyone can do about it, if you are not Jewish go fuck yourself. " History has nothing to do what is happening today. You are just trying to drive the narrative anyway you can.

> History has nothing to do what is happening today

Sure OK, I can really see you gave this a lot of thought.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#697

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

simiones wrote: post #440

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

All of your arguments are dancing around a very important fact: Israel was not founded on barren land, it was founded on a land where hundreds of thousands of Arabs had lived for many generations. It was founded by driving these Arabs out - initially with peaceful means, but very quickly through force of arms. Not content with pushing most Arabs out of most of what used to be called Palestine, Israel then occupied th…

> If the Jews of the world had sought a sanctuary, a much more appropriate deal would have been to carve out a piece of defeated Germany to create a Jewish state

Of course this was never offered, and it would have been too late anyway - since 6 million Jews have already been slaughtered and since Jews where already very close to their own statehood in Palestine. Also - sounds pretty morbid to me to found the Jewish state near Berlin in 1947, I'm not sure all the Jewish refugees would have been super thrilled to go back to the old neighbors know what I mean?

> I will not mention the similar plight of the Roma people, who no one saw fit to give a country to after the Holocaust either

What are you arguing here. If Roma people want a country beacause they are persecuted they should get one. That's the right of self determination. I am assuming Roma people never pushed for this for whatever reason. Also, you start by saying you will not mention but then you do mention.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#698

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #275

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

"Israel was not built by its founders to be a melting pot, it was built as a home for displaced Jewish people. It was not built to be a place of equality, and unfortunately, by its nature it cannot be one and continue to serve its purpose. If you think that purpose is racist, you are entitled to that opinion, but there are many who believe what Jews have faced throughout history justify a Jewish homeland, and it is v…

> So it was built to be an 'institutionally racially segregated' state?

Yes those damn racist Jews. If the West had a big problem with the concept it could have idk...not kill all the Jews? But that was too difficult a task the last few centuries. So here we are.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#699

Post by weatherlite » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

sterlind wrote: post #421

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The premise of a state which is 'for' a specific group inherently employs segregation. I say subjugation because I think there is a version of that system that maintains a Jewish ruling majority without subjugating the minority. Again, you can agree or disagree with a state that is built on segregation, but I ask that you include in your judgement the history and context of Israel's existence.

out of genuine curiosity, how would that system work? how can you prevent subjugating the Arab minority?

If the conflict ended and the area accepted Israel in its current form, it wouldn't be that much different than being a minority in any other Western country.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#700

Post by edanm » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #689

edanm wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a disingenuous way of putting it. The Palestinians who stayed in Israel during the Israeli war of independence became citizens. The ones who left, did not. They were also not part of Israel for almost 30 years, they were refugees of other countries, who then attacked Israel. They have never been Israeli citizens, and were not even in Israel for many years before they became Israeli refugees. (Whether they shou…

Honestly I'm really confused every time I try to understand Israel. Ordinary terms like citizenship, borders, immigration, and statehood are all in dispute. Then that makes it hard to define "democracy". I tried reading about the history of Palestinian nationality on wikipedia, and I have as many questions as answers. Are they Jordanian, Egyptian, Palestinian, or Israeli? Are some Palestinians stateless? What does "t…

I'm no expert, but I can give you my perspective (Background: I'm Israeli, and consider myself fairly liberal politically).

> Honestly I'm really confused every time I try to understand Israel. Ordinary terms like citizenship, borders, immigration, and statehood are all in dispute

I'm not sure what you mean by in dispute here. Most of these are fairly well-defined when it comes to Israel. They're not even unique definitions - Sweden is the state of the Swedish ethnic group, Germany of Germans, Japan of the Japanese, etc. Israel in its conception is the land of the Jews.

There are complicating factors, which is that history you alluded to. While it certainly seems from the wiki article that the "historical Palestinian national identity" is something that is still argued about, I think the relevant part isn't so controversial.

Around the mid-19th century, the land that is now Israel (and was back then referred to as Palestine) had mostly Arab inhabitants, with a small Jewish population. Jews around the mid-19th century started a plan to go back to the lands they were removed from two thousand years prior - and many Jews started (legally) immigrating to Palestine and buying Palestinian lands. This caused there to be a fairly large Jewish population by the time 1948 came around.

Between 1900-1948, that land changed hands several times, eventually ending up under the rule of the UN, which made a plan to divide the land into a Jewish country and a Palestinian country. The Palestinians refused, and fled the land, as several Arab countries decided to attack Israel. Here there is some disagreement - were the Palestinians encouraged to flee by their leaders? Were they pushed out of Israel? Those are more disputed facts (I think for sure, some of both things happened.)

Israel won that war, effectively cementing most of modern day Israel, minus some (fairly large) territories. The Palestinians that stayed in Israel and didn't flee, became Israeli citizens. The hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that did flee became refugees in other countries.

Then the Six Day war happened. (Israelis generally consider the war to be started by others, though this is certainly disputed.) During this war, Israel took a bunch of extra territories, and with it, the Palestinian refugees. However, Israel didn't officially annex the regions or give the refugees citizenship, rather, kept them (and still to some extent keeps them) as refugees.

I think that's the majority of the story, from a (definitionally) Israeli perspectiev.