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The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

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Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#101
post #94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how worthy the purpose, falsehood is falsehood. Is it really such good education for your children to demonstrate that lying should be used to obtain the important things in life?

Since you are purporting that falsehood is never wrong... exodus 1:15-20 (NRSV) The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, ‘When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live.’ But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the…

Did God deal well with them for not following the command of Pharaoh or for lying? It's unclear. The case you are building is not rock solid :)

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#102
post #86

This is sad -- there is a need to restrict access to a limited resource, but for any individual parent, it's the right choice. The ultimate solution is to improve the quality of the bad districts, but that will take a long time. For now, I think the best approach is strict enforcement of residency, but three tracks in for out of district students: cash payment substantially in excess of per-student marginal cost; com…

Why not use a lotery? I don't see why any public district shouldn't be available to any state resident. What would be the rationale for any preference to residents or district workers?

Any other policy serves only to preserve the inequality of the education offered between districts.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#103
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, I'm not entirely familiar with your education system. That being said, wouldn't schools receive funding based (at least in part) on the number of children enrolled at them? I would have thought that would have made more sense than taking a percentage out of the incomes of the residents in a community and funneling that to the school. The point I'm getting at is Ms. Williams-Bolar pays taxes. If schools…

Doesn't work that way; property taxes in the geographic region of the school district go to fund the schools in that district and nowhere else (if you ignore the effects of equalization lawsuits). If someone living in a low-tax district puts their child in a school in a high-tax district, they are free-riding. The case in Connecticut involves a mother from Bridgeport, which is a poor area, putting her daughter in sch…

In my moms school district it's even worse. If a person from a district attends school in a district that isn't in their district, the school they attend receives no funding for that particular person. Generally schools are funded to a degree by attendance, and kids from other districts are excluded... so that's why the districts are so particular about where the kid comes from.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#104

Don't try to send them to a 'good' school, certainly not an 'academically good' school. Bluntly, the K-12 teachers don't know anything worth much serious study or effort. The best can hope for from a K-12 school is that it will do no harm. Find a school that has a nice 'social atmosphere' and otherwise is RELAXED, e.g., with as little homework as possible. Then for the real learning, have your children do that at hom…

I think these parents are trying to get their kids out of schools that can't even enforce basic discipline in the classroom. There's a big difference between an environment where teachers don't know anything worth much serious study or effort and an environment where teachers spend almost all of their time trying prevent a riot from breaking out in the classroom and thus spend almost no time actually instructing stud…

What you wrote with:

"almost all of their time trying prevent a riot from breaking out"

is quite similar to what I wrote with:

"The best can hope for from a K-12 school is that it will do no harm.

"Find a school that has a nice 'social atmosphere' and otherwise is RELAXED, e.g., with as little homework as possible."

So we are at least partly agreeing.

What to do about a school with knife fights in the classrooms, drug deals in the halls, and pimping at lunch time is to get the hell out: Such a school fails on "do no harm" and "a nice 'social atmosphere'".

If just have to leave and can't afford a wealthy neighborhood, then pick a small town in a rural, farming area in one of the more northern states; there essentially any school will do no harm.

Also good, pick a college town. Even if sweep floors, flip burgers, wash pots, and act as a security guard, will be able to do a terrific job getting children ready for college and life.

My good news is that don't have to move to some neighborhood with all millionaires. Instead, quite sufficient is JUST "do no harm" and a 'social atmosphere'. Academically relaxed is also good.

This is a radical recommendation: For good work in actually learning for college and life, mostly don't depend on the school. Don't mostly depend on the school even if in one of the best school districts in the country or even are sending children to one of the best private schools.

Why? Again, yet again, to repeat, bluntly the K-12 teachers don't know enough to teach much of anything to be taken very seriously. The K-12 years are some of the very best years for learning, and it is a grand disaster that those years are turned over to the K-12 system and, thus, largely wasted.

Also implied but not stated was, get the heck into college level material ASAP. In the US, the good academic material starts in college and continues into graduate and professional school. K-12 is wildly different and, academically, is a really bad joke -- mostly can just skip it. For most parents who want good education for their children, this is radical but good advice.

With my advice, careful parents, and a one-room school house in a serious, rural farming community will totally knock the socks off ANYTHING in formal K-12 education.

For your:

"Also, it can be very hard to support real learning at home if you are a single parent working two or three jobs to make ends meet."

True.

So: (1) Young people, listen up: Work however hard is necessary to form stable marriages and, really, stable, larger families. Marriages and families are IMPORTANT. Again, listen up.

(2) Unless you want a series of disasters for the rest of your life, delay having children until you can form a stable marriage.

(3) In the home, set up a 'culture' of learning instead of TV, cars, fashion frocks, popularity competitions, cell phone gossip, pop culture, fast food, sports, wild parties, etc.

Then, get the children started and going on learning, largely independently, ASAP. Then the children can learn on their own time with minimal time from parents, so little that there still is a chance for a single parent.

But this matter of a 'culture' of learning is just CRUCIAL. If there is any doubt about the culture in your home, then disconnect the TV. Keep children away from 'pop culture'. Emphasize LEARNING and, then, curiosity.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#105
post #101
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you are purporting that falsehood is never wrong... exodus 1:15-20 (NRSV) The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, ‘When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live.’ But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the…

Did God deal well with them for not following the command of Pharaoh or for lying? It's unclear. The case you are building is not rock solid :)

Endless are the arguments of the Rabbi's.

In all seriousness though, this passage was a big point of discussion in the middle ages. Many were uncomfortable with the midwives apparently being rewarded for lying. One solution was although they were rewarded they were not rewarded as much as they would have been if they had not lied.

My interpretation: The midwives lied in the service of life; the God of this passage rewarded them. Therefore, the God of this passage is a God of life. He does not support needless destruction and is willing to allow his servants to lie if life increases as a result.

> "The case you are building is not rock solid :)"

Unfortunately, with Biblical Studies it is impossible to build a rock solid case. There is always another persuasive argument just around the corner!

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#106
post #84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously not. The whole point of the article is that poor, intelligent children do not have any way to enroll in schools that would allow them to excel. Presumably if you lied on the income level on a scholarship application, you would have the funds to send your kid to a nice school but you wouldn't want to pay for it. Note that if you were very poor lying about your income on your scholarship application would not…

No matter how worthy the purpose, falsehood is falsehood. Is it really such good education for your children to demonstrate that lying should be used to obtain the important things in life?

Under certain circumstances, Yes.

Would it be moral, do you think, for a parent in Nazi German to lie when asked if their child was half Jewish in order to prevent the child from being taken away to the concentration camps? In my mind, it would -- and it would be a good lesson for the child: that truth is LESS important than saving a human life.

Now suppose that the situation were more starkly clear-cut than it is here. Suppose that the jack-booted thugs knocked on the door and demanded to know whether your child was A or B. If A, then the child would get an excellent education and have an opportunity to demonstrate their potential in life. If B, then the child would receive no education beyond 5th grade and would be prohibited for the remainder of their life from making a living in any profession other than drug dealer. I don't know about you, but in this case too I would think it moral to lie and claim A when the child was actually B. This lie hurts no one, and it saves a human's potential, if not technically their life. I even think it would make a good life lesson for the child.

What about this case? The extremists may think that the choice of urban or suburban school IS a case of "chance in life" vs "drug dealer", but the reality is much less clear cut. Some people who attend poor urban schools DO succeed in spite of the disadvantages. But many more of them do not. The lie may not be justified in this case. But if you agreed with me on one or both of the hypothetical cases above, then you should see that it is a matter of degree, NOT a stark absolute -- a decision that requires careful consideration of the degree of institutional injustice that your lie serves to combat, and a decision that persons of wisdom and ethics may disagree on.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#107
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously proposing we go back to pre-public schooling society - you know, the one where the vast major of the population was completely uneducated since education was strictly reserved for the wealthy? Laissez-faire brings out some admirable qualities in people, but it is also an extremely unequal system with many detrimental effects on society (including the rich). There's a historical reason why we invente…

Now that we have things like affluence, the 'primed pump' of an educated society, the NEED for an educated society, and finally, the Internet, I don't see why we need nearly the government involvement in education that we did 50-100 years ago.

I am not convinced we DO have a sufficiently educated society. I see serious candidates for public office who are rejecting science (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/a-fundamental-r...). I think democracy itself requires an educated populace, and that an egalitarian society requires at least a basic level of equality of opportunity for all.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#108
post #97
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you are purporting that falsehood is never wrong... exodus 1:15-20 (NRSV) The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, ‘When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live.’ But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the…

No, I'm not purporting that "falsehood is never wrong" (you meant "never right", I suppose). In context, I was talking about falsification of records with an intention to obtain educational benefits otherwise disallowed.

So falsehood is okay when midwives save infants' lives, but not when teachers educate them?

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#109
post #99
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that American cities are structured to keep the poor and minorities in nominally independent cities or suburbs that are geographically indistinguishable from the richer areas, but just independent enough to ensure that property taxes aren't shared. It's also hard to escape the fact that many, if not most of these suburbs were explicitly set up to keep out blacks, latinos, Jews, and other undesirable gr…

> It's also hard to escape the fact that many, if not most of these suburbs were explicitly set up to keep out blacks, latinos, Jews, and other undesirable groups. Actually, it's pretty easy to escape that "fact" because it simply isn't true. Yes, there were some covenants like that, but they were relatively rare. And, most of the housing stock is newer than that, so even if such covenants were somewhat common and we…

Restrictive covenants were not rare, especially in the post-war suburbs. The first modern suburb, Levittown, NY, was racially segregated. It wasn't called 'white flight' because the people fleeing the inner city wanted to live with blacks. Restrictive covenants didn't end up the Supreme Court because no one was interested in enforcing them.

Re: The Latest Crime Wave: Sending Your Child to a Better School

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efforts must be made to eliminate systematic biases in standardized testing. When we are reasonably convinced that has been done, as far as I'm concerned it's all just how the cookie crumbles. Make sure that you're acceptance policies are merit based, and damn the consequences.

Merit-based access to education is an extremely debatabe proposition. Should a quality education be limited only to the already brilliant? Is it a better outcome to make a high-potential kid very well educated or a medium-potential kid basically educated? Remember that both become voters in a democracy. West Wing had a nice conversation about this with regard to Affirmative Action beteen the black intern and the cons…

Perhaps we're working on different definitions here, but here's an anecdote of what merit-based education can do for everyone.

My friend was diagnosed with multiple learning disabilities as a child, and attended a school for people like him. Classes were small, teachers understood and he learned how to write and do math as well as an ordinary person- great results for someone with his long list of disabilities.

On the other hand, I aced an exam to go to a very selective school. Teachers pushed every kid there to do their best, and I learned how to speak, write, debate, program and do math at a level far beyond what I would have otherwise. Sure, I would have come out of my high school years knowing a lot about math no matter what school I attended, but I wouldn't have learned anything about how one should speak or debate, nor would I have learned how to write well.

I think that's the way to go- push kids as far as they can go. This is a lot easier when teachers know how far they can push, which is where results- based stratification ( something I, at least, consider synonymous to merit-based) comes in.

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