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A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

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Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#31

> Since there’s no values in the set, never type can’t never (pun-intended) have any value That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. “never type can never (pun-intended) have any value” makes sense.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

I mean, I agree with all that, but also in practice there actually are English utterances that a vast majority of native English speakers will interpret as indicative of a profound lack of familiarity with the English language, and it's reasonable to describe those utterances in normal conversation as being "grammatically incorrect."

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#32
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen such double negative at many places, to represent strong negative. Don't know if it is some trend!

It’s fairly common usage in the US southeast, and in AAVE. Regarding it as poor grammar rather than an evolution of dialect is a matter of (snobbish) taste more than anything.

One major problem with it is that even in those dialects, a double negative can also be a positive, and outside of some semi-fixed constructs that mandate one or the other interpretation in that dialect, the distinction relies things like tone and/or stress/emphasis, which of course are lost in writing. This makes it rather unwise to use in writing, unless context clearly dictates one interpretation.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#33
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI: Neither 'tu es' nor 'tu aies' make any sense to me (disclaimer: I have only learnt Spanish on the street). https://www.spanishdict.com/conjugate/ser Perhaps you were trying to write down what you heard? 99% of the time there is a single canonical translation from verbal to written and vice-versa; English speakers have trouble learning that for some reason.

Sorry, I should have provided context. This was French, not Spanish. (I've clarified it in the original comment.) If it had been Spanish, transcribing it would be easier. French mooshes a lot of things together, so that "es" and "aies" are both pronounced "eh".

Note that they are two different verbs (to be and to have, respectively), so the context should have made it clear which one you should use.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

>Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. That's a very hefty accusation. Do you have any proof that "they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction"? >Now, there's something to b…

> Do you have any proof that "they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction"?

Apologies; you are correct that my assertion is overly strong. I should rather have said "although we can no longer ascertain for certain the purpose for which these rules were introduced, some believe the origin to be rooted in a desire for creating an arbitrary class distinction."

Many of the "rules" we were taught can be traced directly back to an ongoing movement in the relatively recent past (like within the last 100-300 years, I think) to regularize English according to Latin grammar. This includes rules like:

- never end a sentence with a preposition

- never begin a sentence with a conjunction

- never split an infinitive

But we can find literary examples breaking any of these rules going back further than the origins of the rules. The rules were made up by people who revered Latin and thought English ought to be more Latin-esque.

The correlation to class distinction comes from the fact that people who tended to study Latin and revered Latin in this manner were members of an aristocracy, theocracy, or similar upper class, and there are other instances of these groups' efforts to arbitrarily distinguish themselves as being distinct from and superior to other groups of people.

There are also more recent efforts in a similar vein, as well. For example, in the United States there is a dialect commonly practiced by Black people in certain areas called African American Vernacular English. This dialect has a number of characteristics that are frequently labeled as "uneducated" or constituting "poor grammar". Although it is not controversial to say that these characteristics are marked in General American dialects, the specific connotations of the labels are generally understood to be rooted in a desire to portray Black Americans as belonging to a lower class, regardless of each individual's actual socioeconomic status.

> Also known as "poor grammar".

No, markedness is not also known as "poor grammar". There is a huge distinction.

The notion of markedness is that, for some group of people, a given utterance will strike them as not being something they themselves would say. Markedness is always framed in terms of a cultural context, by which I mean that it is okay to say that Americans generally find the British "go on holiday" to be marked --- it sticks out in the American dialects. This is a subjective assessment.

But "poor grammar" specifically seeks to attribute a negative connotation to the utterance. It says suggest that people who construct such utterances are, somehow, uneducated, or else are outsiders. It says that they've done something that is objectively (not subjectively) incorrect or wrong.

> Yep, in those groups the utterance isn't considered poor grammar.

Not always. Again, the terms are distinct in intent.

I don't think most Americans would listen to an English person say "I will go on holiday" and call it "poor grammar". They might say "that sounds funny" or "I'd never say it that way" or whatever else, but I think most would not use a phrase with such a strongly negative connotation. Many Americans view people with English accents (specifically accents closer to Received Pronunciation, though others are included) as having increased intelligence or other intellectual merit, for whatever reason, and so they will avoid labeling the speech of such people to be "incorrect" or "wrong" or "bad"; they will instead simply label it as "different".

However, when many (especially white) Americans hear utterances like "I been going to the store" or "I done finished my homework" or "I ain't never seen such a thing", they will label those as "poor grammar". They are specifically making a negative assessment of such utterances.

But all the examples are considered equally marked in General American dialects.

So my desire to distinguish markedness from "poor grammar" is rooted in a desire to fight stigmatization. There is nothing inherently wrong with those latter examples I gave, especially because almost all native English speakers will understand their intents (at least generally) without issue.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#35
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

Any sources on poor grammar being a new thing? It's been taught in public/private schools in England for centuries, maybe even millennia.

Sorry, I think I was not clear enough.

There have certainly been efforts to draw arbitrary distinctions between groups based on speech for a very long time, probably going almost as far back as language itself.

What I was referring to was specifically an effort rooted in a desire to use rules of Latin grammar to restrict constructions in English. This was a big thing relatively recently (likely sometime in the past 100-300 years). It is this movement from which we get rules like "never end a sentence with a proposition" or "don't split infinitives" --- those sorts of things.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

I'm sure there's some validity to this from an anthropological/linguistic standpoint (I'm a big fan of "sounds prescriptivist but ok"). But look at your own comment: > Context is important. If you are writing, say, an academic paper that you want to publish at a particular venue, then you are expected to adhere to the grammatical conventions of that venue. This is a technical blog post addressing a technical audience…

> This is a technical blog post addressing a technical audience.

I disagree; it is a personal writing. If I write a blog post, I can use whatever grammatical constructions I like. I don't think there should be any expectation of a particular grammatical style in an individual's personal writings.

This was not a peer-reviewed article, nor was it submitted for publication at a specific venue. It was self-published on the internet.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

I mean, I agree with all that, but also in practice there actually are English utterances that a vast majority of native English speakers will interpret as indicative of a profound lack of familiarity with the English language, and it's reasonable to describe those utterances in normal conversation as being "grammatically incorrect."

The technical term for such utterances is "ungrammatical", for what it's worth. This is a term with less uhhh shall we say "ideological baggage" than one built with the word "incorrect".

That said, the specific example being cited from the original blog post is not considered marked in many native English dialects.

And, indeed, I believe that we should be less concerned with such labels even with non-native English speakers. Since English has effectively become the world's go-to language of international communication, we should seek to understand other people's intent rather than attempt to correct arbitrary (and, frankly, unimportant) artifacts in their grammatical constructions.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#38
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not a pun that’s just poor grammar. There is no such thing as "poor grammar" --- it's a myth. Most of the grammatical "rules" we tend to be taught in primary and secondary school English courses were invented relatively recently, and they were created specifically for the purpose of establishing an arbitrary class distinction. Now, there's something to be said about markedness [1]. If the majority of a speci…

And beware that markedness is pronounced as three syllables like mar•ked•ness[1] Is marked pronounced as two syllables, mar•ked, in the context of linguistics? I am guessing it would definitely be in British English[2]. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vrZpjr44c1w [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/dwo5gj/is_it_a... Sorry for the poor source links, I only did a quick Google. Disclaimer: I am from New…

In my linguistics courses (at a university in the United States), professors pronounced "marked" as a single syllable.

Generally, when indicating we want to give an E that is normally silent its own syllable, we use the grave accent. E.g., for "marked" we would write "markèd".

At least in General American dialects, "marked" is rendered as /markt/ because of rules about vowel epenthesis and consonant voicing assimilation. /markd/ would indeed sound odd to the American ear, I think. But when you explicitly add the vowel back in, the voiceless /k/ no longer forces the /d/ to assimilate its voicing characteristic, so you get /'mar.ked/. (I am using informal IPA because I'm too lazy to go copy/paste the specific symbols, but in this context they would add little anyway.)

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I agree with all that, but also in practice there actually are English utterances that a vast majority of native English speakers will interpret as indicative of a profound lack of familiarity with the English language, and it's reasonable to describe those utterances in normal conversation as being "grammatically incorrect."

The technical term for such utterances is "ungrammatical", for what it's worth. This is a term with less uhhh shall we say "ideological baggage" than one built with the word "incorrect". That said, the specific example being cited from the original blog post is not considered marked in many native English dialects. And, indeed, I believe that we should be less concerned with such labels even with non-native English s…

> The technical term for such utterances is "ungrammatical", for what it's worth. This is a term with less uhhh shall we say "ideological baggage" than one built with the word "incorrect".

But my point is that people will use phrases like "grammatically incorrect" in casual conversation (far from any context of linguistics or any social science) to describe certain utterances, and there are cases where this is not unreasonable.

Re: A complete guide to TypeScript’s 'never' type

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I should have provided context. This was French, not Spanish. (I've clarified it in the original comment.) If it had been Spanish, transcribing it would be easier. French mooshes a lot of things together, so that "es" and "aies" are both pronounced "eh".

Note that they are two different verbs (to be and to have, respectively), so the context should have made it clear which one you should use.

Yep. It was completely clear. I just wasn't thinking clearly.
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