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DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

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Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#791

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I think the idea that this many people have been duped by disinformation campaigns is in bad faith. People wouldn't be seeking alternative sources if they had any reason to trust mainstream corporate media, and the latter has proven themselves deeply untrustworthy given the number of political scandals and manufactured crises they have grossly misrepresented by cheering them on and making it clear that critical think…

You think I'm arguing in bad faith? That I'm deliberately advancing an argument I know to be untrue? OK, interesting... Anyway, moving on, I think you make some good points. Absoultely, so-called MSM has gaslighted people on various occasions. But that doesn't disprove the "duped by information campaigns" premise, it supports it. People are distrustful of MSM because they have been successfully deceived in the past.…

>Everything that is true is there, but so is every lie, and every near truth. But because all information is equally available without regard for truth, the library is effectively useless. That's what an entirely uncurated internet becomes.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, but I don't think that's a justification for censorship. The non-curated internet did come up with Wikipedia and a lot of great sources. Some of those sources go from great to bad. Do you trust Amazon reviews? I don't but I used to; I think a lot of people feel the same way. Amazon tried to "fix" it by censoring what it felt were bad reviews, but it didn't seem to work.

I think the main disinformation comes from politics, which, by nature is disinformation. I don't think that, to paraphrase, "people believe dumb things," is a good justification for censorship. Think about what passed as truth in 1850 or even 1920. Darwin of course was censored and the Snopes trial are just examples of where any type of censorship, allowed to stand, halts the progress of a civilization.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If search engines thought that their trusted sources were publishing disinformation, they wouldn't be trusted sources. You’re confusing propaganda sources with fallible trusted sources.

No, I'm commenting on the fact that search engines do block propaganda sources in the US when they think they're a significant source of harmful propaganda, but very obviously they don't block propaganda sources that they don't think are propaganda. Your problem is that these engines disagree with you about what is and isn't a harmful propaganda source. That's a reasonable disagreement to have. But you're trying to p…

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Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#793

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> I think it is immoral for some business executive to make sweeping decisions about what the commoners are / aren't allowed to see I used to have this point of view, but it's clear lately that certain types of information do not result in good outcomes if processed by the uneducated. The U.S. is already going in the direction of a dystopia if you haven't noticed. More free speech isn't going to help gas, housing, or…

> I used to have this point of view, but it's clear lately that certain types of information do not result in good outcomes if processed by the uneducated. I am watching a lot of historic documentaries. I studied history (and literature) originally. I read a lot of historic sources and accounts. This argument, that the powerful and educated need to protect the dumb masses by censoring what they are allowed to know/re…

It's not about protecting the dumb masses, it's about protecting the non-dumb from the dumb. Any ideology, set of rules, etc. can be abused to the extent where its harmful, so that's not the point. I'm not sure I want a government to be making those types of decisions, but I have no problem if a private platform does.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is immoral for some business executive to make sweeping decisions about what the commoners are / aren't allowed to see I used to have this point of view, but it's clear lately that certain types of information do not result in good outcomes if processed by the uneducated. The U.S. is already going in the direction of a dystopia if you haven't noticed. More free speech isn't going to help gas, housing, or…

You had clearly already decided that all of these societal ills where either caused by bad information being processed by “the uneducated” or would be worsened by it. So this comment says more about how you view the uneducated than it says about the merits and demerits of censorship.

Yes, it does.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#795
post #704

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Officially they made it illegal to inaccurately describe their invasion.

For example by calling it an "invasion" as you just did.

Oops - lucky I am not in Russia...

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#796

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Forget leveling the playing field. Removing western disinformation is still important too. Forget specific positives or disinformation about Russia specifically attacking Ukraine. There’s plenty of other misinformation from western powers relating to Russia. I haven’t seen much chatter at all about the western specifically America’s role in what Russia is today. How often is the IMF and related neoliberal capitalist/…

"The non mention of NATO being a pointless organization today but especially in a collapsed Russia world would be good to know." WHY ISNT MY RIDICULOUS OPINION BEING PRESENTED AS FACT BY THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA?????????????? You realize how insane your arguments are, right?

“ridiculous opinion” is also your opinion. Who said no mainstream media is talking about this?* Who said it should be presented as fact? Even I don’t believe it should be presented as fact. That would be misinformation. Even presenting something I whole heartedly agree with — bigotry is wrong. That’s not fact.

*I was obviously exaggerating with “non mention”. It was also one small part in my thought out, serious and long comment.

However your exaggerations of all caps, “being presented as fact” and “ridiculous opinion” (again which is just your opinion) are all negatives and don’t help any sort of dialogue.

This topic is discussed in the mainstream. Off top of head: BBC, Guardian, Al Jazeera, PBS, NPR, WNYC, WBEZ, WHYY, CBC, The Daily Show, The Young Turks, AJ+, NowThis, Pod Save America, Slate, Vox, Vice all have certainly covered this. Previously, Fox, Tucker Carlson (within Fox and his other affiliations), OAN, NewsMax, Daily Wire, and more on the right have also covered this and before changing their stances because of the public, were very much anti NATO.

I can see how a few listed can be claimed as non mainstream. That’s fair. Though other media listed like Pod Save America and Daily Wire have top 10 most popular podcasts. I think that can count as mainstream.

If publications like WaPo or the biggest podcast, Joe Rogan, have no discussed this yet. They will at some point to some degree.

I’m curious why you thought this fairly basic and quite common rhetoric necessitated an all caps response and hints of insanity that the mainstream cover it. I am respectfully, going with you being in your own bubble and not knowing too much about politics as my hunch and/or enjoying/preferring the status quo. However that’s just a hunch.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#797
post #712

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wasn't nato created to counter the ussr?

The USSR or whatever country rulled by whatever regime, as long as they maintain a large enough army, all while preventing Europe from building its own, is my guess.

Who’s preventing Europe? At most Germany is prevented to some degree.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#798

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"If I don't want to see "Russian Disinformation", I probably won't search for it to begin with." ? Nobody is really searching for 'disinformation'. That's the whole point. Is 'disinformation' really 'what they were looking for'? Or were they looking for good information, and the 'misinformation' - which doesn't appear as 'misinformation' comes up first. They click it and become unwittingly 'misinformed'. It's obvious…

In the war situation, I assume everything is potentially misinformation, and want to see statements from all sides. I mean if you read Western media, they will literally write "Russia is putting out a lot of disinformation", so that would be at least one claim I could try to verify myself, by looking at actual Russian media. But the more important point is, how does DDG decide what is misinformation and what is not?…

1) There is a difference between 'rah rah nationalism' and 'disinformation'. The Western media is not putting out disinformation so much as focusing on the things that benefit them. This is perennial.

2) It's myth that there is some kind of 'neutrality' in term of search - you have to pick an algorithm. It's rational to want to chose sources that have integrity as opposed to those that do not. 'Information Populism' i.e. just picking the 'most popular link' leads to the 'National Equiror' type information.

3) "how does DDG decide what is misinformation and what is not" and "politically motivated"

This moral relativism is the problem with the 'free speech' advocates. There is something as the 'truth' and, some parties are better at communicating it. Some parties actually just make up whatever they want and say it. There are ways to make that determination. Everyone is based, some more than others.

4) " I think some "internet savvyness" has to be expected from search engine users. "

"The assumption that just because some statements by Putin show up in search results, people would just flat out believe them, is rather insulting and belittling."

Both of these statements are essentially wrong.

Almost nobody has the 'internet savviness, time and wherewithal' to actually fact check. Less than 0.1% of people. Most people are not paying close attention to any issues, let alone a specific one, and don't have the wherewithal to do anything about Tweets they say. Moreover, 'most people' are populist, they like to twee jokes, get angry, like things that make fun of the group they don't like.

As for b) 30% of Americans believe that the 'election was stolen' by Joe Biden, when there isn't a shred of evidence to support that lie. And that's a pretty big lie. So imagine that - at least 30% of people will believe you if they just want to believe you. 30% of people believe that Police are evil and just want to arbitrarily arrest and beat black people, and that merely the act of getting pulled over is dangerous, which is also ridiculous. Racism exists, but anti-racism hysteria has given people a context that simply is not true. The evidence actually supports that.

This is why 'Putins words alone' can be dangerous. His current 'propagnda' about 'Denazification' and that the UKR government is a bunch of 'Nazis and Drug Addicts' is perverse, and that the government is fully of Nazis.

But 75% of Russians believe it fully.

How do you think he managed to convince 75% of the Russian population of things that are ridiculously untrue?

Russians are getting calls from relatives in Ukraine, and literally not believing them when they hear of bombings in Kiev, they'd rather believe the propaganda that 1st hand evidence.

That's the power of misinformation and it speaks to the fact that people aren't often even interested in the truth at all, but rather that which makes them feel better.

Finally - if you want access to Putins' words, it's all there. There's nothing hidden. If that's what you are really searching for you will get it. You can easily find on DDG and Google his 'Mein Kampf' style works where he's justifying the grand narratives of the invasion. In that context, anyone searching specifically for that is going to find it in the 'quality' context we'd expect from DDG or Google.

Nothing is being hidden or censored, it's all there if you actively search for it.

What we don't want is Putins' propaganda seeping through the cracks into every day populist rhetoric. We don't want his army of social influences able to make their lies and propaganda party of the daily vocabulary of common information ingestion.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If search engines thought that their trusted sources were publishing disinformation, they wouldn't be trusted sources. You’re confusing propaganda sources with fallible trusted sources.

No, I'm commenting on the fact that search engines do block propaganda sources in the US when they think they're a significant source of harmful propaganda, but very obviously they don't block propaganda sources that they don't think are propaganda. Your problem is that these engines disagree with you about what is and isn't a harmful propaganda source. That's a reasonable disagreement to have. But you're trying to p…

> they don't block propaganda sources that they don't think are propaganda

That’s the point of contention.

> But you're trying to phrase this like it's some kind of deliberate action or general policy on their part, and it just doesn't make any sense.

It doesn’t make sense because I’m saying that.

Users upset with DDG understand that everyone is blinded by bias, so don’t attempt to filter topics that can be affected by it.

The solution is give those users options for unfiltered results like they do with safe search.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#800
post #429

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I don’t know. Since this sort of thing isn’t happening and the general atmosphere of everything is unlike your hypothetical. I’m not sure it much matters.

The united states has several states passing laws so doctors can proscribe ivermectin for covid, we genuinely live in a world where homeopathy is a the option Steve Jobs took instead of cancer therapy. I have no understanding of why you would say this is not happening when product brands like GOOP make tons of money from outright hocus pocus health bs.

I think Ivermectin was part of the CDC’s COVID prevention or when you have light levels of Covid lists back in 2020 and early 2021. I remember seeing it from progressive people sharing stuff before it became the term and meme it became today. That makes it a really interesting point too, but it makes all sides look bad.

OTOH, you’re right Steve Jobs and what he did...yikes. That sort of thinking is harmful for society.

Yes GOOP is disgusting. So disgusting.

I thi

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