Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 376 posts

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#251

Post by snowwrestler »

jedberg wrote: post #220

I think a lot of people are misreading this. Right now one of the rules to pass a crash test is that there is a steering wheel. This didn't used to be controversial, but now it is. The rules were written in the 70s and just assumed there would always be a drivers seat. The only thing here is that the government rewrote the rules to no longer assume those things. It's not saying those things aren't necessary, just not…

It’s not 100% clear in the article, but it reads like this change is scoped to crash safety. The scope of those regs is the physical protection of the passengers in a crash, not all aspects of safety related to self-driving cars. So, not a big deal.

Actually, removing the steering wheel is probably a crash safety gain. Manufacturers had to invent a way to retract the steering wheel in crashes since it caused so many torso injuries. Steering wheel injuries were also the spur to invent and deploy the first airbags.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#252

Post by yazaddaruvala »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #203
rmbyrro wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never thought driving a vehicle is that general of an activity to require AGI. Which parts of driving would require AGI?

> Which parts of driving would require AGI? Being able to read the intent of other cars and preemptively act if necessary. For instance, being able to predict that the harried mom on her phone toting 3 screaming kids in her beat up minivan is likely to change lanes without looking (I passed her preemptively), or that the car with out-of-state plates is likely to miss a confusingly signed exit and try and cut over at…

Or, the AV can calculate the worst from every car and go a little slower i.e. safer. Leave more room between the car in front and move out of the way for cars too close behind.

An average 20 min ride increased by 10% would be 22 mins. I’d gladly trade an extra few mins in the car to 1. Be safer. 2. Get back 20 mins to check the news or play chess or worst case work.

Self driving cars aren’t just going to be a reality, in PHX they kinda are a reality. It doesn’t seem far fetched to think 5 years (high estimate - 10 years) from now Waymo will be scaled to the top 25 cities in the US.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#253

Post by ClumsyPilot »

throwawayboise wrote: post #243
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #171

I would go further - if the vehicle is autonomous, it should be illegal for it to have a steering wheel. The idea that you can make a deadly self-driving car, and then jail the driver because he could not react in 0.2 seconds when your car suddenly swerved is the greatest handover of money and power to corporations since the times of slavery. So make the choice clear - either tha car has controls, or it doesn't. And…

The owner is going to be liable, regardless of who is in control. Just like if someone else is driving your car and causes an accident, you (the owner) are the one who will pay.

"Just like if someone else is driving your car and causes an accident, you (the owner) are the one who will pay."

What? Do you go to jail If someone kills a pedestrian with your car? Do you have to pay compensation for injuries?

I don't know what jurisdiction you are in, but here the one who cuased damage is the one who pays.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#254

Post by amelius »

cj wrote: post #124
vmception wrote: post #122

I was at a crosswalk and saw a car with the big cameras on top coming Normally I walk and have confidence the human will stop and not want the consequences, or I at least make eye contact with the human driver for reassurance they will stop This time I ran, mumbling “self driving car fuck that”

Eye contact is also a major component of driving a motorcycle safely. When at an intersection, you know another car sees you by looking through their windshield and judging whether the person is distracted or if they're aware of your presence. It would really benefit motorcyclists, pedestrians, and other drivers if there were some mechanism for self-driving cars to visually and outwardly acknowledge your presence. Ho…

But motorcyclists are playing unfairly here, since bicyclists and pedestrians can't see through their visors.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#255

Post by ClumsyPilot »

young_unixer wrote: post #185
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #171

I would go further - if the vehicle is autonomous, it should be illegal for it to have a steering wheel. The idea that you can make a deadly self-driving car, and then jail the driver because he could not react in 0.2 seconds when your car suddenly swerved is the greatest handover of money and power to corporations since the times of slavery. So make the choice clear - either tha car has controls, or it doesn't. And…

The driver should know the capabilities of the car. If he doesn't, then he shouldn't drive it. If he isn't 100% sure that autonomous driving system will work as expected, then he should never enable that system.

How does the driver know reliability of closed-source, ai based autonomous system is the manufacturer himself doesn't?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#256

Post by Kinrany »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #198
vmception wrote: post #122

I was at a crosswalk and saw a car with the big cameras on top coming Normally I walk and have confidence the human will stop and not want the consequences, or I at least make eye contact with the human driver for reassurance they will stop This time I ran, mumbling “self driving car fuck that”

I was thinking about that recently, that there needs to be some kind of “I see you” system. Maybe an external light that tracks you or something. Anything that can help me as a pedestrian understand what its internal state is.

How hard would it be for all vehicles to broadcast an ID, a location and a velocity and reply with confirmations when one vehicle sees and "hears" another one?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#257

Post by jedberg »

twblalock wrote: post #238
jedberg wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't buy one, would you? Absolutely! In a heartbeat. Because I know it's a tool to enhance my driving, not replace me, and I still need to pay attention. I already have an add-on for my car that gives me level 3 on the freeway (no hands on the wheel needed). I still keep my hand on the wheel though and I still pay attention, but it definitely helps because I don't have to use brain power staying in the lane o…

What I meant was, would you buy a car without controls? Without a steering wheel?

Ah, today, probably not. But if it was proven safe enough to not need one, sure. I'd look at the safety data and decide.

But the point is, no manufacturer would sell one without a wheel either because they know it wouldn't sell. This is just a change to not require one to pass safety tests. The car still has to actually pass the safety tests though.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#258

Post by robbrown451 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #177
roamerz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comment of the day. Thanks for the laugh.

Not all of us laugh. My first grandchild is going to be named for a childhood friend of my daughter, who was killed by a car. My daughter still hurts, 15 years later.

Sad story.

I hope she reconsiders naming her daughter for the girl who died tragically.

My sister was named for a cousin that, as a baby, fell out a window to her death, a decade or so before my sister was born. When my sister was a couple weeks old, my parents realized that they didn't want to think of that tragic story every time they said my sister's name. So they changed her name to one without the emotional baggage.

There are other ways to honor someone's memory, that don't affect your relationship with your new child.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#259

Post by nobody9999 »

belval wrote: post #175
nobody9999 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is problematic for a number of reasons. The most important in my mind is that the risk of the vehicle being hacked and carjacked remotely is always present. Which raises the question: "Why would we engineer vehicles to accept external network connections?" Any communication to/from a vehicle should only be initiated by the vehicle itself. There's no reasonable criteria under which a vehicle should have its syst…

> Or am I missing something important? We absolutely want to remotely control cars at some point, how else will you send a self-driving taxi to a customers or "ask" a car to comeback to the garage for a recall on the underlying hardware or for general maintenance?

>We absolutely want to remotely control cars at some point, how else will you send a self-driving taxi to a customers or "ask" a car to comeback to the garage for a recall on the underlying hardware or for general maintenance?

Who is this "we"? You might, but I don't.

That's a disaster waiting to happen.

What's more, under the circumstances you describe, there's no reason such vehicles need to be internet accessible. Or have we forgotten that communication doesn't require the internet?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#260

Post by a_t48 »

OmahaBoy69 wrote: post #225
akoster wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you, so many new cars offer remote start/remote engine heating block initiation or even the ability to summon your vehicle from a parking garage and have it drive toward the exit. Many consumers will not purchase cars without these new features, all of which require an external server to issue commands to a vehicle. Definitely a huge security risk, especially with lack of manual controls. Where are…

Agreed on all but remote start. Maybe it's different on fancier vehicles (I have a '13 Mustang), but it's usually just a radio that starts the engine and nothing more. Hardly a security risk.

My 2021 jetta can be started from the VW app, over 4G.
Post reply on HN